From: Mermaid . (britannica@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Jan 16 2002 - 07:41:35 MST
[Hermit]"At the end of the day, those listening to this non-discussion will
decide on the truth of the proposition. As most of them will not perform the
research, they will probably decide based on whether my opinion or yours is
better justified and thus carries more weight." - Hermit, CoV.
[Kalkor] That statement is completely free from delusions (including the
self- variety). In addition, it makes a very good point about why we should
NOT need to perform the research ourselves. There is an accepted
procedure/ruleset known as the Scientific Method that removes the necessity
for us to reinvent the wheel. In my ideal universe, I could learn everything
first hand through experiment and observation. However, that is not the
reality we inhabit. We MUST rely on others to do some of the research and
experimentation, otherwise what's the point of even having written language?
How can we do this? By applying logical, critical methods to how/when/why we
accept information as "fact". The same point is made more eloquently below,
but not with the same succinct impact ;-}
[Hermit] I am as free of belief - through careful conscious effort - as I
think a person can be.<snip>
[Mermaid]This proves my point. Do you really believe all this is about
'reinventing' the wheel or questioning the 'scientific method'. Has constant
spoonfeeding made your intellect so blunt that you cannot even comprehend
the progression of this shitfest? Yash will have learnt something from this,
hopefully and he would have learnt the most in this group. The issue of
Vedic Mathematics, which initiated all this, is irrelevant and secondary
here.
[Mermaid]When I say that one has to conduct research on their own, does it
not imply that one has to rely on someonelse's work to a certain
extent..their book..their website...someone's speechnotes? Am I stupid
enough to ask you to trust one source from a book and denounce another's
post here at CoV? Like it was mentioned before by more than one person
<although not necessarily for the same subject as you and I are discussing>
as you have, it is all about context.
[Mermaid]When I read a book, I try to find out about the author. I always
try to understand his background and figure out his motivations for writing
a book. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone can write a book. It
requires passion. It requires drive. It requires immense concentration and
discipline. It most definitely requires motivation. If a book contains a
hidden agenda to promote the author's pet peeve of the moment or his current
mental squeeze, I will take what he takes with a pinch of salt. I would
imagine that the same applies to any piece of work which instructs me.
[Mermaid]I am not denying Hermit's intellect or his methods of research. I
will be lying that if I said that I did not learn from him. He has taught me
a lot, here, elsewhere and over and over again for many years. He has
directed me to knowledge consciously and a lot of times unconsciously where
I learnt by watching and just by listening. I followed his cue. I learnt how
to cull information. How to fish in the Internet...what to look for
information at the libraries and from the books. Know that I respect him and
I will never cross a certain line to reprimand a teacher. <Where I come
from, we have a saying...the order of respect is "Matha, Pitha, Guru,
Deivam". Mother..because she holds you inside her until you were ready to
come out into the world. Father ...because he gave you life. Guru...because
he gives you knowledge which is important only next to life itself. And
finally..God..because one should never forget to be humble. The last bit
about God is highly debatable, but only if you take God literally.> I'd
probably never unleash my temper as he richly deserves and as I have earlier
done with people like DrSebby or Richard Ridge or Joe Dees. Despite the
burnt bridges he has left behind<and that was his choice but I WILL NOT
trade friendship for my convictions>, I do love him...not unlike Bill Roh
does...BUT one has to stand for one believes and for one's absolute
convictions absolutely. And I believe with absolute conviction and
absolutely that Hermit is way out of line here. His stubborness and ego has
bought him down to the level of a fraud. This argument over vedic
mathematics was only the last straw on the camel's back. We have been
staring..nose to nose..unblinking for the last two threads before this
latest one.
[Mermaid]People in CoV trust him. He has an obligation and a duty to respect
that. His rabid anti-religiousity cannot obstruct the natural exploration
every mind would otherwise take. Of course, it is the fault of the rusty
minds that has now grown fat and lazy from all the free brain droopings and
I have an equal amount of contempt for them. As I learnt from Hermit, I was
also able to spot where, when and how he goes wrong. I learnt to conduct my
own searchs and often I can even trace the trail of information he has
unearthed to construct an argument. There is a sea of information out there.
One only has to get out and smell the fresh air. Learn from Hermit. Notice
how he constructs his arguments. Respect him for what he gives and knows.
But do not allow yourself to be a slave to his dogma. If you do, its your
fault and noone else is to blame...
[Mermaid]We are not talking about the 'reinvention' of the wheel. Remember
that I was born and raised in India. I grew up surrounded by REAL turds and
I managed very well, thank you ... and without any trauma too. There does
exist utter and total nonsense. In palm leaves, one can find the history of
their PREVIOUS BIRTHS!! But in schools, we read about the legend of Newton's
<who btw singlehandedly contributed more to the development of science than
any other individual in the history of science and he was a theist>falling
apple and not about Aryabhatta's verse when they taught us gravity. Do you
think our parents raised us with prayers of Pi to memorise the numbers
before the half yearly examinations? We were sent to schools to learn
English and I dont even know Sanskrit. So, please do not insult my
intelligence or my integrity. I resent any implication about me not knowing
the 'context'.
[Mermaid]Hermit KNOWS the solid roots of Mathematics in India. Hermit knows
that gravity and heliocentrism and astronomical truths occur in ancient
Indian works. But here in the CoV, this has descended to a petty fistfight
and a shitfest purely because of the exceptional and rather stinky usage of
the English language by one very egotistic man. He deliberately distorted
information. He deliberately mushed three different issues of Pi mnemonic,
Sulba Sutras and Vedic Mathematics. In addition, he sprinkled it with
innuendos of religion and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. These are fraudulent
tactics. These are despicable and sneaky attacks on a topic and which any
scholar should be ashamed of...and Hermit should be too and rightly so. But
these are debating tactics nevertheless and I can criticise the Hermit for
the usage of his tactics but I cannot blame him because he did not ask
anyone to follow him blindly. That, it seems, is your job description. The
fact that more than half of those who have chosen to participate in this
thread believe that vedic mathematics is all about eastern mysticism or
religion or that Ancient Indian Mathematics and its significant
contributions to the world amounts to 'horseshit' proves my point. Smearing
my name or my intentions or calling me names most definitely indicates that
there is a need to divert and resort to such tactics in order to supress the
real need to discuss a topic. It indicates a lack of supporting materials
and hence weakness. A weakness that comes through clearly in the anger
tinged words...an anger that is not righteous...but an anger that resulted
from offense to questioning one's authority.
[Mermaid]In Indian mythology, there exists a bird...a swan, the Annapakshi,
that has descended from the heavens itself...a bird that was so pure and
wise that if water was mixed with milk, it knew how to seperate the water
from the milk and drink the milk alone. Such should be the nature of
knowledge. Knowledge is derived from learning to seperate the chaff from the
grain. You DO NOT throw the baby with the bathwater. So, please do not
preach to me about context. I am fully aware of it. Try to learn something
on your own instead of sucking it off someone else's brain and do not follow
like blind sheep.
[Mermaid]Truth is relative. Facts are only true as far as they are allowed
to be. For every position, there are several contradictory positions. And
every one of them is worthy of deliberation. To rely on one person's opinion
without personally weighing each and every alternate possibility is to cheat
oneself. Remember that we are not talking exact science here. That is a
whole different ball game. You experiment...starting with an aim and
objective...you conduct the experiment using a scientific method...you make
observations and finally you infer. Everytime, the result will be and should
be the same. Repeating such experiments, I agree, is a waste of time, but
this is a matter of opinions. This is a subject where much is hidden in the
mists of time. But whatever it is, even here experimentation should prove
that everytime the 16 rules of calculation in vedic mathematics is applied
on any number and on any number with any number of digits...it should always
work. What fascinated me is the fact that it is supposed to work on any two
numbers upto any number of digits. THAT is scientific method. But the man
only read a 'bit' and what authority does he have to discard the book and
its methods as 'horseshit'. Nada. Zilch. And I am a PsychoBitch for asking
that? Then there was the whole slew of nonsense with the Hebrew Code
comparison. This has absolutely no relevence or meaning. Unfortunately,
there has been so much skillful injection of confusion with the introduction
of several or at least three seperate topics that one cannot clear this mess
without a clear, clean head to sort out one issue after another. <This is
when I realised that the name calling and slander by invoking religion works
for Hermit..it deepens the chaos>And then the authenticity of the book re
authorship. This, I agree, is highly debatable but again there is no means
to prove it either way. Even your Handy Encyclopedia Hermit cannot travel
back in time and find out if the author fabricated it or if the Vedas
assisted in mathematical calculations. This is beyond your 'scientific
method' and to use such an obscure and personally held belief to discredit
what looks like a workable manner of calculation without even reading the
book fully smacks of fradulent intent. Those sold out on this Hermit bias
will never explore Vedic Mathematics and who knows if it will help or hinder
them in a possible event of their reading the book. Beliefs should arise
out of one's personal conviction and not out of laziness.
[Mermaid]Of course, everyone has free choice. And I choose to do what I do.
You can go ahead and invest your beliefs<no, I dont mean the word,belief, as
an insult as some do here> wherever you want. I havent changed my opinion on
this issue, the manner and direction this has taken..not one iota. I realise
that this is a memetics list. I can see that its all about infecting people
with one's own ideas. But I choose to resist. I choose to inoculate myself
with knowledge that I can derive first hand and that is *my* choice. I dont
think I have much use for this group anymore other than to sit around and
observe some very interesting human reactions and interactions. You have a
good one...:)
"At the end of the day, those listening to this non-discussion will decide
on the truth of the proposition. As most of them will not perform the
research, they will probably decide based on whether my opinion or yours is
better justified and thus carries more weight." - Hermit, CoV.
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