From: Jane Cfitizen (citizenjane@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue May 21 2002 - 05:55:56 MDT
The way Adam describes the Romans you'd almost think they had just learned
to appreciate the capacities of the brain to categoratise and organise,
becoming eloquent not just in poetry but in critique also. Look at what
else they did, viaducts, sewerage, they were quite the new moderns it's
true.
Slavery happens today, whenever a big company moves into a small or even a
large town, they are lauded as heroes for the few jobs they make available,
I say few because the cost of those jobs is much smaller than the overeall
profits. Similarly, the human effort in pyramids is far outweighed by their
longevity.
Our notion of slavery is possibly fluid, there are many today who feel a
slave to the mortgage, the family, the career. Why don't they 'break the
chains'? Are some of us, to some extent, genetically disposed to a meagre
and unambitious existence?
----- Original Message -----
From: "virus-digest" <owner-virus-digest@lucifer.com>
To: <virus-digest@lucifer.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 10:10 PM
Subject: virus-digest V8 #122
>
> virus-digest Thursday, May 9 2002 Volume 08 : Number
122
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:07:43 +0100 (BST)
> From: Bodie <mclarkc@essex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> ooops, I apologise :)
> I been really busy recently and not able to keep up with the list so sorry
> if I come uninformed about the passage of the debate
> On Wed, 8 May 2002, kharin wrote:
>
> >
> > "Hermit, I know I've said this before, but it's not god to totally
dismiss
> > all myth as just that."
> >
> > Your spelling errors are always amusing, but you've really excelled
yourself this time. Congratulations.
> >
> > and it's fact that the egyptians used a lot of slaves to
> > make the pyramids.
> >
> > The original reason for this debate was my noting that much current
thinking suggests that slave labour was not used to construct the pyramids.
But thank you for following the debate so closely before posting.
> >
> > ----
> > This message was posted by kharin to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
> >
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 09:08:59 -0600
> From: "kharin" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> Tchah! Stop unreasonably diffusing my sarcasm and bitterness by being
nice! It's just not fair!
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by kharin to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:27:08 -0400
> From: "adam g" <adamg@bu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Re:virus: Egyptian history contradicts the Bible
>
> > [Matt 3] This reminds me, the Aeneid was taught to school children in
> ancient Rome as literal history. Now, if anything, the 'history' books of
> the Old Testament, like Joshua, Judges, Samuel, etc read a bit more like a
> real account (however garbled) of some sort of real events than the
Aeneid.
> And as for being derivitive, anyone could see even then that as masterful
as
> Vergil was, much of his material was borrowed from Homer.
> >
> > [Matt 3] Still, serious people ran a vast empire believing they
descended
> from gods and goddesses and heros suckled by wolves, etc. (It seems that
> having highly implausible ideas of who one descended from or of the
history
> of one's people does not prevent good sense and pragmatism and technical
> advancement in the present.) By comparison, believing in a phantom
> enslavement, which could well have been based on real events, though
vastly
> inflated in the telling of the story for all the reasons that the
cruelties
> of one's enemies are always inflated, actually seems somewhat reasonable.
>
> [Adam 0]
>
> If I may interject, I'm not aware of the evidence that school children
were
> taught the Aeneid as literal history. In fact there are reasons I
> strenuously doubt this is the case. The grammarians possessed a
> well-reticulated system of literary criticism (as Hermit pointed out),
based
> on reading poetry as fictive, that preserved Roman knowledge into the Dark
> Ages. It was not until the Christian Middle Ages that absurdities like the
> 'sortes Virgilianae', which was a system of fortune-telling based on
> flipping to a random verse of the Aeneid, or the spelling 'Virgil', which
> was based on its similarity to the mystical 'virga' or wand, cropped up.
> These are the sky-hooks that eventually develop from the kind of intensely
> literal reading Christians were performing on the Bible and Jews were
> performing on the Torah (and I imagine the Haggadah) that eventually
sought
> cosmic significance in every word. I see a very different case among
> literate Romans. Consider Servius' widely-used 4th century commentary on
the
> Aeneid that <i>begins</i>:
>
> In exponendis auctoribus haec consideranda sunt: poetae vita, titulus
> operis, qualitas carminis, scribentis intentio, numerus librorum, ordo
> librorum, explanatio...
> qualitas carminis patet; nam est metrum heroicum et actus mixtus, ubi et
> poeta loquitur et alios inducit loquentes. est autem heroicum quod constat
> ex divinis humanisque personis, continens vera cum fictis; nam Aeneam ad
> Italiam venisse manifestum est, Venerem vero locutam cum Iove missumve
> Mercurium constat esse conpositum. (available from Perseus at
> http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0053 )
>
> "In explaining writers these things should be considered: the life of the
> poet, the title of the work, the nature of the poem, the author's intent,
> the number of the books, the order of the books, and their explanation...
> The nature of the poem is obvious; for it is heroic meter and a mixed
> performance where both the poet speaks and makes other characters speak.
> Moreover it is heroic because it is made from divine and human personages,
> which contains both truth and fiction; for it is well-attested that Aeneas
> came to Italy, but that Venus truly spoke with Jove or that Mercury was
> sent, is well-known (a translation of 'constat' straight from Chambers
> Murray) to have been composed."
>
> In other words serious Romans took the Aeneid at face value as a great
poem
> and witheld the stamp of historicity for the more rigorously researched
> genre of historical prose. Poetic use of mythology was in general regarded
> with a grain of salt, especially among the more comic of the Latin
elegists,
> contemporary with Vergil, who freely poked fun at their heritage (Ovid is
> particularly irreverent). Propertius openly calls Hades a 'ficta fabula'
in
> III.5 but conversely he is very willing to exploit the Hades-topos for
> literary effect. As for others I can easily imagine Marx's "opiate of the
> people" remark coming from Cicero's mouth, though not in a public
> declamation. The official priesthood rapidly became a political tool that,
> unlike today's moral majority, had little to no ideological agenda. In
many
> ways the educated Roman approach to religion was pragmatic and modern, a
> point I've always found fascinating.
> Hope I didn't waste too much space to expand on a small point but I feel
it
> may be relevant to Virus' overall mission.
> Adam
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:02:07 -0600
> From: "rhinoceros" <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> [Bodie]
> and it's fact that the egyptians used a lot of slaves to make the
pyramids.
>
> [kharin]
> The original reason for this debate was my noting that much current
thinking suggests that slave labour was not used to construct the pyramids.
>
>
> [rhinoceros]
> In fact, the question of whether slave labor was used to construct the
pyramids was left open.
>
> I would really want to know more about it. My current view is that slave
labor was a historical necessity for that socio-economic stage. So, any
evidence that the pyramids were built by hired labor or volunteers or any
other way would cast doubt on this view, and I would have to give it some
serious thought.
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:05:44 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re: Re:virus: Egyptian history contradicts the Bible
>
> [Fabes 1]
> [Hermit 2]
> [Matt 3]
> [Kharin 4]
> [Hermit 5]
> [Adam 6]
> [Hermit 7]
> [hr]
> [quote from: adamg@bu.edu on 2002-05-08 at 11:27:08]
>
> <snip>
>
> [Adam 6] If I may interject, I'm not aware of the evidence that school
children were taught the Aeneid as literal history. In fact there are
reasons I strenuously doubt this is the case. The grammarians possessed a
well-reticulated system of literary criticism (as Hermit pointed out), based
on reading poetry as fictive, that preserved Roman knowledge into the Dark
Ages.
>
> <snip>
>
> [Adam 6] In other words serious Romans took the Aeneid at face value as a
great poem and witheld the stamp of historicity for the more rigorously
researched genre of historical prose.
>
> <snip>
>
> [Adam 6] In many ways the educated Roman approach to religion was
pragmatic and modern, a point I've always found fascinating. Hope I didn't
waste too much space to expand on a small point but I feel it may be
relevant to Virus' overall mission.
>
> [/quote]
>
> [Hermit 7] This is not a trivial point at all.
>
> [Hermit 7] I am in complete agreement with you on all of your observations
and for demonstrating the value of a classical education.
>
> [Hermit 7] Thank-you for an exceptionally well researched and written
post.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Hermit
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
64>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:34:48 -0600
> From: "elvensage" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: this is the world we live in...death comes in threes
>
> I feel sorry, I really do... because I know the feelings you are
going through, I think we all have. Alice in Chains happened to be one of
my fave bands... along with Tool, NIN, and Rammstein. Sad to see such great
people go to waste. I mean, I've been tempted to try drugs before, I wont
lie. Especially acid, and shrooms... the stuff that's supposed to make you
really see things and "open up" (they say.) But, never did.
> My views on death are also a bit different... because I actually want
to know what it's like. I want to know if I disapear... if I'm still
somehow here (other than the whole energy and circle of life thing) and
such. So many things could be answered if I could... ya know? But I guess
it's too much of a risk if you do just disappear... which is what beleive.
I'm ranting now... sorry... sorry about all that shit. Life can suck.
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by elvensage to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
62>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:45:24 -0600
> From: "elvensage" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> Here is my outlook on all these posts... plain and simple. Why the hell
are you guys arguing about something that is PROVEN to be false. There is
enough proof out there to say the bible is total... excuse my language,
bullshit. You know that, I know it. No reason to argue about anything that
happens in it. Just push it to the side, along with last weeks old
newspapers. =)
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by elvensage to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:12:00 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> We don't "know" how the pyramids were built. Certainly, the Egyptians
themselves learnt the needed techniques very slowly, and there are clear
stages of development, scale and techniques (some of which can be seen in
the attached picture - but bear in mind that the arabs stole the dressed
sandstone for their buildings (post 600CE) which once covered them). We do
know how the priests explained it to Herodotus of Halicanassus when he
visited Egypt in about 450 BCE. Herodotus was told by his Egyptian guides
that it took twenty-years for a force of 100,000 slaves to build the
pyramid. They also told him that the stones were lifted into position by the
use of immense machines. The purpose of the structure, according to
Herodotus's sources, was as a tomb for the Pharaoh Khufu (generally referred
to as Cheops). Most of this was probably imaginative reconstruction. After
all, by the time he visited the site, the great pyramid was already over 20
centuries old, as Khufu (2589-2566 BC!
> E) reigned from 2613 to 2498 BCE (4th Dynasty of the "Old Kingdom") and
the truth about it was surely shrouded by the mists of time.
>
> There are many hypothesii to explain it, many of which have been tested
and have been shown to be effective. These range from the use of slip clay
as a lubricant (highly credible, refer e.g.
http://www.unmuseum.org/bldpyram.htm - a very convincing site) through the
use of simple rollers or sledges (less persuasive, dealt with above) to the
outlandish, for example the suggested use of hydraulics to position the
blocks (e.g. look under "Articles about our research" at
http://www.thepump.org/art2earlystages.htm. Please notice the somewhat
strident pseudoscientific tone of the article - the authors have a bee in
their bonnet about the power of "vortices" rather than the use of simple
technologies like hydraulic rams and bucket lifts).
>
> However the building was accomplished, and despite what you may have heard
elsewhere, tests prove that it was well within their known capabilities
using bronze age technologies, one thing that has always struck me about the
Egyptians, is that the pictures of the pyramid workers do not show vast
teams of people. Given that they were working with heavy objects, I find
that indicative that they were using smarts rather than force. Another
strong indication that smarts were at work, is the simple matter of cost.
Slavery is known not to be cost effective - particularly when it comes to
skilled labor (Toynbee) and the Egyptians evidently had a very large number
of skilled stone masons in their workforce. I would suggest that these would
not have been slaves (although many of them may have been indentured
servants), and that the camps found were where the workers lived. However,
as noted at http://www.unmuseum.org/bldpyram.htm Egypt had a seasonal
economy, and I am readily persuade!
> d that the agricultural workers may well have worked on the pyramids when
not required for agrarian duties. It is likely that labor was provided
instead of levies (paid in the form of goods and services as there was no
monetary system then), which had already been a feature of the Egyptian
economy for 1500 years previous to the building (we have many of the tax
records). If that is the case the cost, although it still would have been
large, would not have exceeded the capacity of the domestic economy. While a
slave force of 100,000 almost certainly would have, as, using late 17th
century numbers (the only reliable numbers about pre-industrial slavery are
provided by the Dutch and Chinese), would have required about 600,000 to
1,200,000 support staff (to farm, feed and guard them). A number that at the
low end would have taxed the economy to the hilt and at the upper end, would
likely have exceeded the entire effective's population (total population of
about 2 million).
>
> Regards
>
> Hermit
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:28:39 -0700
> From: "Michelle" <michelle@barrymenasherealtors.com>
> Subject: Re: virus: Neodeism
>
> I think the point of examining from the POV of at least nominal believers
is
> that it's the only way to begin to convert the lost... that little
> provisional nod to belief is the only way to get a foot in the door of a
> deluded, fervently Xtian closed mind. Now, many of us would say "what's
the
> point, they're lost causes", but there are lots of reformed Xtians out
there
> who only came to the fold of rationality by the patient efforts of an
> enlightened person willing to have ridiculous arguments with them.
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "elvensage" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:45 PM
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
>
> >
> > Here is my outlook on all these posts... plain and simple. Why the hell
> are you guys arguing about something that is PROVEN to be false. There is
> enough proof out there to say the bible is total... excuse my language,
> bullshit. You know that, I know it. No reason to argue about anything
that
> happens in it. Just push it to the side, along with last weeks old
> newspapers. =)
> >
> > ----
> > This message was posted by elvensage to the Virus 2002 board on Church
of
> Virus BBS.
> >
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
> 54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:37:36 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: virus: IRC - Killing is too good for them
>
> [A-KO] I can't believe this BULLSHIT. Computer criminals who put human
lives at risk, either knowingly or through "reckless" behavior, could face
life in prison under the legislation. Smith's bill would loosen those
requirements to enable service providers to report threats that are not
immediate, and would protect them from lawsuits when they do so. Providers
would face penalties if they did not store electronic records, such as
customer e-mails, for at least 90 days.
>
> [Hermit] nods
>
> [irvken] Computer criminals - should they remain unpunished?
>
> [Hermit] The punishment is ridiculously out of proportion, introduced by
people who don't understand the environment and thus introduciung punishment
for "slippery slope" threats.
>
> [Hermit] The average time served in the US for murder is 8 years (and
fewer than 50% of murders result in a conviction). You can't legitimately
sentence on the basis of "it might be", but only on grounds of "proven
intent" and "harm done." Otherwise, every person who climbs behind the wheel
of a car should be locked up for life... After all, if you hit somebody with
a car, you might kill them, and if we made this parallel to the proposed law
above, then intent is proved by the fact that you knew this could happen and
yet you still drove it....
>
> [Hermit] The parallel is not ridiculous. And I spend a ridiculous amount
of my life trying to stop people breaking into systems.... We don't need
laws like this, which are solutions in search of problems designed to make
the proposer look "tough on crime" but in fact simply make them look
ridiculous to anyone of sense. They are not harmless, because if
implemented, they will undoubtedly fuck up some of the brightest, nicest,
most caring people we have.
>
> Extended and expanded from an IRC discussion held on #virus at
irc.lucifer.com:6667 (also accessible via the "chat" button on the BBS at
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs).
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
69>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 19:26:29 -0600
> From: "rhinoceros" <rhinoceros@freemail.gr>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> Two more interesting URLs about ancient Egypt.
>
> Economy
> http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/economy/index.html
>
> Slavery
> http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/slavery.htm
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:08:11 -0600
> From: "ben" <ben@machinegod.org>
> Subject: Re: virus: IRC - Killing is too good for them
>
> [irvken] Computer criminals - should they remain unpunished?
>
> [Hermit] The punishment is ridiculously out of proportion, introduced by
> people who don't understand the environment and thus introduciung
punishment
> for "slippery slope" threats.
>
> [ben] Oh cripes, I come here to get _away_ from that argument... OK then.
A
> brief rundown of thoughs:
>
> 1: Yes they should be punished. No they should not all be treated as
> terrorists.
> 2: If I hear the word 'cyberterrorism' one more time I may slap someone...
> 3: Life imprisonment should be reserved for crimes the lawmakers
understand.
> 4: The first homicide perpetrated entirely in software is still homicide,
> and should be punished 'solely' as such.
> 5: In the same spirit, online theft is theft. Punish accordingly. Do Not
> Panic.
>
> I'm with Hermit on this one - if we start to punish everyone who does
> anything that 'may' put other people's lives at risk, we will have nobody
> left outside.
>
> - -ben
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 09:30:50 +0200
> From: "John Jurgens" <squooker@mweb.co.za>
> Subject: RE: virus: Neodeism
>
> <snip>
> [Bodie]
> and it's fact that the egyptians used a lot of slaves to make the
> pyramids.
>
> [kharin]
> The original reason for this debate was my noting that much current
> thinking suggests that slave labour was not used to construct the
> pyramids.
>
>
> [rhinoceros]
> In fact, the question of whether slave labor was used to construct the
> pyramids was left open.
>
> I would really want to know more about it. My current view is that slave
> labor was a historical necessity for that socio-economic stage. So, any
> evidence that the pyramids were built by hired labor or volunteers or
> any other way would cast doubt on this view, and I would have to give it
> some serious thought.
> <snap>
>
> [Blunderov]
> I'm almost certain that I have seen hieroglyphs of victorious Egyptian
> armies taking slaves. Whether they were used to build the pyramids is,
> of course another matter, but presumably there would have had to be a
> compelling reason not to use slave labor in such a massive project if it
> was available.
>
> Perhaps the archeological remains of well cared-for workers rumored to
> have been found were those of "consultants"?
>
> Fond regards
>
> Blunderov
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 02:14:29 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: virus: The Giggling Guru or How you too can become a fake guru
and make billions.
>
> Given the fact that there have been no new dead Beatles for a while, and
that all the carefully prepared funeral orations are simply gathering dust,
while the other great fake saints of the last century are in too advanced a
stage of decomposition even for CNN's Larry King Live (e.g. The Sainted MT,
Queen Mum and Dali's Llama), they apparently plan to interview Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi (supposedly reincarnated since forever, most recently, as a
cockroach in human form) on Sunday May 12th, 2002 at 9 p.m. EST unless
either Larry King or the Wannabe Swami dies first, in which case CNN has a
standby animatronics dummy which can run either a Larry Spin or Giggling
Guru emulation script. Interestingly, those involved in testing the dummy
report that it seems to be more sensible than either or both of King and
Yogi (not that that really posed much of a programming challenge.) For
updates visit www.cnn.com/larryking closer to the time.
>
> Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is 4286 years old and will be teaching Larry King
how to lift his bellybutton away from his naval, how to delude himself into
believing he can fly and how, if he gives all his money to Maharishi he too
can enter Utopia (which is genuinely a trailer park in Fairfield Iowa).
>
> If anyone asks him some real questions, e.g. why his movement needs to use
extortion and threats against people that it perceives as having the
potential to harm it - it could become quite interesting.
>
> The Giggling Guru wanted to be a revered yogi, and so chose to live a
rugged (frequent sexual exhaustion) and ascetic lifestyle (why he has $7'000
worth of roses delivered to his wooden palace every day). Many centuries ago
(?), he often went barefoot, and not having been given magnificent carpets
then, developed calloused feet. He also attempted to live on a strictly
vegetarian diet (mainly rice and beans) which has caused him to develop bad
breath. The food he eats being so lacking in nutriments, and his age so
advanced, that he is somewhat weak of body (though less weak of head than
his generous supporters). What these supporters have perhaps not yet
realized, is that the best description for their guru is "Super-calloused
fragile mystic with extra halitosis."
>
>
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
72>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 02:16:12 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: Re:virus: Neodeism
>
> Informative articles, thanks Rhinoceros.
>
> LOL Blunderov. Consultants, forsooth!
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
54>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 03:06:30 -0600
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> Subject: virus: Upside down in Australia
>
> Quarter of pew believers take God's word as gospel
>
> Source: Sydney morning Herald
(http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/06/1019441477510.html)
> Authors: Kelly Burke (Religious Affairs Writer)
> Dated: 2002-05-07
>
> [ Hermit notes that the article below does not mention that the vast
majority of Australians would rather not bother with church at all, and that
the figures are carefully cited in an apparent attempt to seem to inflate
the significance of churchgoers. Only 25% of them admit to attending church
once or more times per month World Values Surveys 1998 Table 7 - Changes in
Attendance at Religious Services (percentage attending religious services at
least once a month)
(http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/Releases/2000/Jan00/chrelig.html) (Summary
at http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/Releases/2000/Jan00/r011100.html. To
reflect that I have inserted a second figure, reflecting the percent in the
population as a whole. Please note that this article is almost certainly
easier to read on the BBS under "Upside down in Australia" at
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51. ]
>
> God created the world in six days and the Antichrist is coming, say nearly
one in four Australian church-going Christians. [<6%]
>
> According to results released yesterday from the National Church Life
Survey (NCLS), 24 per cent of those questioned believed that the Bible was
the word of God and should be taken literally. [<6%]
>
> The survey of 435,000 Australians from 19 big Christian denominations,
conducted in the middle of last year, is considered the most comprehensive
of its type in the world.
>
> Surprisingly, the stronghold of fundamentalism - and specifically
creationism - is youth. Nearly two-thirds of teenagers who attended church
believe in creationism, according to an earlier NCLS report. [<16.5% of
teen-agers - the largest group]
>
> "The tendency has been for younger people not to go to church, so what's
happening is that only those with conservative approaches to Christianity
are staying in the churches," said Dr Philip Hughes, senior research officer
with the independent Melbourne-based Christian Research Association.
>
> Yet according to the latest NCLS findings, fewer than one in four young
people aged between 15 and 18 who attended church felt "very satisfied" with
the experience, and this level dropped even further for those aged 19 to 25.
[<6%]
>
> Such figures of doom, one would think, could hardly give cheer to those
attending the release of the new survey.
>
> However, there was some good news: 82 per cent of church-goers felt a
close bond with their congregation [20.5%]; 74 per cent had experienced
God's presence in church [18.5%]; and more than 60 per cent believed their
parish was always willing to try something new. [15%]
>
> Paradoxically, though, while 85 per cent [21%]felt their faith had grown
in the year to mid-2001, only one in five credited this to their local
church [5%].
>
> And according to separate findings by the Christian Research Association,
most believers felt their faith was more likely to be strengthened through
closer relationships with family and friends - or by getting closer to
nature - than attending church on Sunday. [>12.75%]
>
> Rod Bullpitt, one of the survey's co-ordinators, suggested that God
continued to work in mysterious ways and that, overall, the survey's results
showed churches had established strong foundations to build on.
>
> However, Dr Hughes appeared less optimistic.
>
> "I'm not sure that overall it's all that encouraging ... but the downward
trend is not as downward as I was expecting," he said. [A 15% drop in
attendance from 40% to 25% of the population since 1981]
>
> "There are some positive notes, so you could say the church is evolving
... we're just not sure exactly what it's evolving to."
>
>
> - ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=254
73>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of virus-digest V8 #122
> ***************************
>
>
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