From: Zloduska (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Tue Sep 24 2002 - 19:57:10 MDT
[BillRoh] I can't believe this is comming from me - I'll go wash my mouth out afterwards.
If you really are comming like that, I'd make sure to wash out that other orifice too if enough soap won't fit in your mouth.
[BillRoh] As for David, and I hope you are reading Lady Z, I was / am ( I cannot speak for the others) pissed at David for the exact reasons you mention as his good qualities.
You mean, when I said that he has "always tried to remain neutral and do right by us"? How is being fair and reasonable something to be pissed off at? Maybe in a parallel universe, but not in mine.
[BillRoh] By permitting Hermit to run roughshod as he did, and doing nothing about it when he was the only person that could, he abrogated his firstmost responsibility. This whole thing got out of hand because of David's unwillingness or inability to reign in an out of control moderator.
I don't see that as his responsibility. He permitted us ALL to have equal say, and it was his choice to allow Hermit to make his own decisons (dare I say, mistakes, because I did quite disagree with him on the channel bans). He also allowed many trolls on the list to remain "out of control", but eventually the situation was resolved on its own without him stamping all over people. That shows patience and foresight, not incompetence. David said he wasn't going to moderate the list because he didn't want to interfere too much (or that is basically my interpretation), and we should respect that. Everett Allie really tested that for all of us and made the list unbearable for awhile, and the solution for that was to ignore and redirect him. I really fail to understand the obligation and expectation you and Joe seem to thrust upon David all of a sudden. The Church of Virus is what we all make of it-- not some dictator.
[BillRoh] I also contacted you and others before I left with important info on what to do with the churchofvirus.com domain name, asking for communication regarding the retreat, etc... But I was ignored. None of the people who were to be involved contacted me despite my best efforts.
Let's get something straight, Bill. You ruined the trip yourself. You invited everyone, and David, Hermit, and myself (and others) put in a whole lot of planning to make the trip happen. This was on IRC, while you were not around. And then you got pissed enough at Hermit that you stormed out of the group, and cordially uninvited Hermit, who happened to be our only source of transportation and lodging along the way. There is no possible way I nor my partner could have gone without Hermit and Tina. Hermit was even going to "sponser" RavenBlack who couldn't afford it otherwise. I don't have my own private jet and the extra funds to travel at will. Not to mention the bad vibes. A bad show, all around. And why would we converge at your retreat when you offically withrew yourself from the congregation? It's not my fucking fault the trip never happened. I was really disappointed when it was cancelled. And really sour that all the research I put into Vegas strip clubs (it was a lot) and getting my firs
t lap dance was all for naught. Feh.
[BillRoh] I sent you mail directly when I left stating to the effect that if someone did not reign in Hermit, more would be leaving. I asked you, Lady Z, who would stand up to Hermit when I was gone (no suprise to find Joe stepping up - I can always count on him). You, like David, never responded. Seeing as I could not even exact return messages to direct questions posed to the FH and David, I think a little bit of criticism is in order.
I found the email you are referring to. It was not directly addressed to me, but to "all", an unspecified group of friends- entitled "Time to go". And I never claimed responsibility to "reign in" Hermit either. I simply do my own thing, and when I disagree with Hermit, I stand up to him myself, whether it is in private or on the list. It is unfair to imply that I shirked any kind of responsibility I never assumed in the first place.
And you know, I started a response back then, and it still sits unfinished in my Outbox. But you really need to understand something. I am not kidding when I say I don't have a lot of time to spare, now or any other time in the past. A few years ago, when I was in Prague, and Eric Boyd and others emailed me to ask if I would care to join the FH council, I stated point blank that although I would love to, my time and resources are limited, so I could not promise any huge amount of effort or time that you, Joe, and Hermit apparently have. I said that I would do the best I could when I had time. And that still applies. I am lucky enough to have my own computer and broadband connection, but you have absolutely no idea how strained I am for free time. It's been this way for many, many months. Basically, I work my ass off and have many other obligations/distractions in my life. If I have to choose between:
1) eating, sleep, work, errands, spending time with my boyfriend/friends or talking to my parents
2) dealing with the CoV
Which should I choose? Can you really fault me for making the first choice more of a priority? It is quite unfair to criticize me for not taking it upon myself to police this group of friends and strangers. If others here have loads of free time and the will to get more involved-- good for them. Frankly, I don't. And I don't like your tone of distrubuting blame either.
[BillRoh] I feel David demonstrated a great lack of responsibility and has made no attempt to show an even hand. Our community depends largely upon David demonstrating superior management skills - and as a general rule, David has been immune to criticism throughout the years because he did keep an even hand.
I vehemently disagree that "our community depends largely upon David" managing us-- it depends us keeping our shit together. For the first few years I was on the list, I rarely ever detected a peep out of David, as he only posted on topics infrequently, and rarely made comment about flamewars. The only reason why he is 'involved' in this current one is that he was dragged into it. The only thing he didn't manage well was keeping out of it-- I don't know, by not moving to Guatemala, changing his name to Margarita and getting a sex change, I guess. Again, you are expecting more than duty calls for.
[BillRoh] But now, after facing criticism, instead of trying to repair the damage left by Hermit, David has actually left with Hermit.
I don't see it as him leaving "with" Hermit. He never announced, "If Hermit is gone, so am I!" My take on the situation is that he got disgusted (as I have many times, by the way) and decided to back off and withdraw from further involvement before getting even more frustrated. He said something to the effect of, "I'm going away and I'll check back again at some indeterminate time, hopefully when things have cooled off and all is better." There has been many times that I unsubscribed from the list and took a long vacation from this group because the climate of the list and volume of posts were unbearable. I just didn't announce it to anyone; I faded away and then came back when I was ready and had time.
You and Joe are taking the "God of Virus" metaphor way too seriously. And yourselves. Deciding when you've had enough instead of making things worse by causing more turmoil is not cowardice-- it's wisdom. I admire how David has faced criticism so far. May I remind you that in the past you have dealt with it by throwing your hands in the air, giving up, and leaving in a huff? Maybe instead of whining about the "damage left by Hermit" and David's role as a celestial pooper-scooper, you guys should do your own damage check. I don't see how you can expect him to put up with this crap (ie. undue criticism) and then kiss all the boo-boos and make everything alright again.
[BillRoh] It seems to me that the CoV is in the precarious position of possible non-existence.
Yeah, it is. Because of nasty bickering and silly fighting among the regulars, those who *used* to be comrades. That has nothing to do with David at all.
[BillRoh] Silence is a form of communication. When action is needed, and the response is silence, then it is safe to assume in this case that the silence is equal to full support of Hermit. This is why David is grouped with Hermit. Their leaving together seems to indicate that this is indeed the case.
No offense, but concluding that everyone is in full support of Hermit just because the rest of us aren' t waving around flags with his likeness stiched upon them, wearing Hermit t-shirts and scuplting busts of his head out of mash potatoes, is a bullshit assumption. He is a grown man and can speak for himself. I am intensely loyal to my friends and jump in to defend people when I have time and/or if I feel my opinion/perspective is truly needed.
Now, can you really say that after all the long-winded, carefully thought out and penned, (in)famous diatribes, rants, and rambles that I have written through the ages here, that I am the type to remain silent about issues I care about? The times I don't are generally when I am without an internet connection, out of town, or bed-ridden by illness, which can't be helped.
Sometimes silence means you are in an empty room.
---- This message was posted by Zloduska to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26707>
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