From: Kalkor (kalkor@kalkor.com)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 19:09:44 MDT
[Blunderov]
I wonder if fallacies are an example of a very hardy type of meme
similar to the alleged anthrax (?) in the pharaohs' tombs that were
still viable after thousands of years. Innoculation is the only
remedy...
[Kalkor]
Sounds reasonable. Whether a meme is correct or factual seems to me to have
little to do with whether it is effective. Fallacies are effective in
convincing people of things.
I have enjoyed learning about them and will continue to do so. I also point
them out to others as often as possible, with explanations of why and how
they are considered fallacies. This exercise of defining and identifying
them is valuable not only to me, but to everyone out there. If they
participate, or even if they just observe. With that in mind, I thought
maybe we could continue to exchange observations of fallacious arguments out
in the real world.
Thank you for your help too, Blunderov. Sorry my responses have been slow
and few, but I've had an exciting couple of weeks that I may tell you folks
about sometime soon when I have a chance.
I hope this next one pisses some of you off. Controversy seems to stimulate
conversation ;-}
Ok, I got an email from Moveon.org, an organization that I participated in
to organize protests of the impending Iraq war earlier this year. They've
continued to fill my inbox with call-to-arms wording of a distinctly biased
type, and I take a great amount of amusement in picking apart their
arguments. The latest one is in regards to the impending California recall
election, and in particular one of the major candidates: Arnold
Schwarzenegger. I'd like to quote a couple of news sources used in the
email, and have you folks see if you can figure out which fallacies have
been used and why you think so. Here goes:
"Yesterday, there were revelations about Arnold Schwarzenegger's physical
harassment of women -- charges which he has refused to deny. Today he is
struggling to explain statements he has made throughout his life regarding
Adolf Hitler and another Nazi war criminal."
Refused to deny???? Was he being dared to deny them? What, so when you
accuse someone of something, and they don't deny it, they are in effect
'refusing' something? Refusing to rise to some sort of bait? hmmmmmm
Now, the statement he made about Hitler:
[quote]
"Exceprt from today's front page New York Times article:
http://nytimes.com/2003/10/03/national/03BOOK.html?hp
Schwarzenegger Admired Hitler, Book Proposal Says
By ADAM NAGOURNEY and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
A film producer who chronicled Arnold Schwarzenegger's rise to fame as a
champion bodybuilder in the 1970's circulated a book proposal six years ago
that quoted the young Mr. Schwarzenegger expressing admiration for Adolf
Hitler.
The book proposal by the producer, George Butler, included what were
presented as verbatim excerpts from interviews with Mr. Schwarzenegger in
the filming of the documentary "Pumping Iron." In a part of the interview
not used in the film, Mr. Schwarzenegger was asked to name his heroes - "who
do you admire most."
"It depends for what," Mr. Schwarzenegger said, according to the transcript
in the book proposal. "I admired Hitler, for instance, because he came from
being a little man with almost no formal education up to power. And I admire
him for being such a good public speaker."
In addition to the transcript, Mr. Butler wrote in his book proposal that in
the 1970's, he considered Mr. Schwarzenegger a "flagrant, outspoken admirer
of Hitler." In the proposal, Mr. Butler also said he had seen Mr.
Schwarzenegger playing "Nazi marching songs from long-playing records in his
collection at home" and said that the actor "frequently clicked his heels
and pretended to be an S.S. officer.""
[/quote]
I admire lions for their hunting prowess. I do not admire lions for their
cuddliness. So, if this man admires Hitler for his speaking ability or the
fact that he surmounted obstacles, does that necessarily mean he admires
Hitler for being a Nazi? In fact, he seems to have indicated this exact
concept by his use of the phrase "It depends for what," which he used to
qualify his statement (or so he is quoted as doing). In context, I would
almost assume he intentionally used the Hitler example to point out that you
can admire someone for one thing while reviling them for another.
Next, the article is quoting one man's opinion about another man. In
addition, I think this is what is called "hearsay". However, the implication
is that the man being quoted is an authority and that his word should be
taken as gospel when he "considers" another man to be a "flagrant, outspoken
admirer of Hitler." Is Mr. Butler an expert on Nazis? Is he a licensed
psychoanalyst? Did he never play 'Cops and Robbers' as a child? I did. I
distinctly remember having to play the bad guy some times, and this required
clicking my heels and pretending to be an S.S. officer several times.
Anyhow, please feel free to pick apart anything in here. I welcome the
discussion!
Kalkor
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