In a message dated 2/14/2003 6:25:43 PM Central Standard Time, ishnigarrab@earthlink.net writes:

[snip...]

> [Jake] Our space monkeys will most likely share our culture to a
> significant degree, though their personal interests within that
> environment will probably vary based on their unique circumstances.  I
> think they will certainly understand and avoid fatal mistakes for
> themselves.  Whether or not they will produce the desired results may
> remain up in the air.  Perhaps when they get space born they decide
> they don't like the experiments arranged for them and instead change
> them up or try their own?  Maybe, maybe not.  But I think that if we
> realize that once created they become partners rather than slaves, and
> if we include them in decision making, then we can avoid a lot of
> these conflicts.

Hypathetically: I'm a genetically engineered monkey, raised by
scientists, in a cage (most likely) with not close friends or relatives.
I have nothing to loose and no one to come home too. When I get in
space, why should I return to that little blue circle out there? I have
nothing to look forward to except for maybe a banana and my cage. I
don't care about fame or fortune, or the human race, I don't identify
with them.

[Jake2] First off, I think that not all of our monkeys will go into space.  We will keep a significant colony here on Earth.  Those obviously not interested in going will stay here.  Perhaps they will find other projects to involve themselves with here, either supporting the space expedition in some way, or even unrelated things.  They being social animals will want to return to Earth for their own group if not for us.  I think you underestimate, however, the degree to which they will identify with us.  They will in time develop their own culture, but in the beginning they will be dependent on humans for knowledge just as any newborn.  In any case, we will also be selecting a species and original specimens for the kinds of characteristics that will most suit them for the role we envision.  This would include things like temperament as well as physical requirements.  In short they will have been both selected and then engineered to meet the role that they will play.  Obviously we do not expect all individuals thus produced to play along, so then there is the final step of self-selection for those individuals that do play along.  I think all of these things taken into account will ensure that this program works.  Of course we can expect problems to arise, but I don't see any reason to see them as insurmountable.

> [Jake] Here's who I see it working out.  Not all monkeys will become
> space monkeys.  Many if not most will remain back home but will have
> various involvements in decision making and development of such a
> space program.  This will of course, just as with humans, depend on
> their individual performance and desires.

So why monkeys? We have humans who make these decisions. If your
argument would be that these monkeys would be more intelligent than
humans, why don't we just engineer smarter humans?

[Jake2] Good question.  Two reasons.  First is that monkeys are already better adapted physically to Zero G and space environments than humans, go back to my original post on the subject.  Second is that genetically engineering humans right now would probably run into much more political and social opposition than genetically engineering another species -- as we have already been doing that with no opposition in agricultural areas.

> [Jake] Probably not significantly different implications than those
> that arise from humans from different cultures dealing with each other
> within the species.  I could imagine some variations on themes
> arising, but I would expect similar dynamics.  We already deal with
> problems of pseudo-speciation within our own species
> http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/UTism , I would imagine that real
> speciation wouldn't prove as surprising as you would think.  I could
> in fact imagine many humans preferring the company of another
> intelligent species over their own, translating into a hypothesis that
> pseudo-speciation may actually prove more socially vicious than real
> speciation.

This is a very interesting concept, and if your point is that advanced
monkey are just a cool idea, and should be introduced to society, hell
yeah! But originally it seemed your point was to use them as space
fodder. Although, while most intelligent, reasonable people might not
develope prejudice to these new creatures, the average person most
likely would! They would underestimate them and think they're ugly or
smelly, or whatever. It would wierd out a lot of the 'average, normal'
populice to pull up to McDonalds and see a monkey in the window,
regardless of expectations. Perhaps I'm just underestimating the human
species, but this is what I would predict happening, unless there was
some major PR campeigns for pro-monkey tolerance, or some such shit.

[Jake2] good points.  I would certainly expect to have some PR to foster positive memes for space monkeys.  We could even have some good sci fi movies made, complete with lines of children's toys, both plushy and action figures!  And computer games! etc. . .

Ishnigarrab