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   Author  Topic: Unreason: a meme you need  (Read 9683 times)
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #60 on: 2003-01-06 17:25:53 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #61 on: 2003-01-06 18:14:25 »
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Quote from: garyrob on 2003-01-06 16:58:38   

I'm afraid of getting bogged down in Turing Test questions because, although I think they are fascinating, are not the core issues for the CoV.

Fair enough. Let's move this discussion to another thread.
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #62 on: 2003-01-06 18:17:48 »
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Quote from: garyrob on 2003-01-06 17:21:43   

Can you agree that Empathy should clearly be stated as something that trumps reason that contradicts it; i.e., as the first Virtue?

I don't think so. There is no order to the virtues, they work together.

Reason without empathy leads to bad results and so does empathy without reason. How is one more important than the other?
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #63 on: 2003-01-06 19:03:07 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #64 on: 2003-01-06 19:30:08 »
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Quote from: garyrob on 2003-01-06 19:03:07   

Do you disagree?

I'm not sure I understand your position. Do you equate "reason" with "logical rules of inference"?
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #65 on: 2003-01-06 20:24:40 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #66 on: 2003-01-07 02:51:36 »
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« Last Edit: 2003-01-10 13:37:55 by Jake Sapiens » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #67 on: 2003-01-07 08:21:25 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #68 on: 2003-01-07 08:54:44 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #69 on: 2003-01-07 18:29:05 »
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2003-01-06 19:30:08   

I'm not sure I understand your position. Do you equate "reason" with "logical rules of inference"?

Quote from: garyrob on 2003-01-06 20:24:40   


Hmmm.... I don't know how formally or exactly you mean that question, but I'll loosely say Yes.

If you're using the term in a very different way, it would be helpful for us to clarify our terms.

Reason is a very sophisticated game of abstraction. The game pieces consists of bits of knowledge, variously known as propositions, statements or sentences. Some pieces describe the state of the world, e.g. "nine planets orbit the sun in our solar system". Some pieces describe the pieces used to describe the world (definitions are an example). Some pieces, called conditionals, describe the world as it could be.  Some pieces called goals, describe the worlds as it should be.

Other pieces, the ones that make this the game of Reason, describe how to manipulate all the pieces in a valid way. These rules are also part of the game, which makes it self-referential like the game of Nomic. The rules are used by the players to tell how pieces can relate to each other, and how to generate new pieces or remove existing pieces from the game.

All the pieces, in addition to encoding some knowledge, have an associated truth value that reflects our confidence in the veracity, validity, probability, etc. of the piece. The truth value is used for consistency checks and generating new pieces. Truth values also change when related pieces change.

The pieces are arranged in a network of implications. The rules define what the implications are, a simple example is: if there is a piece X with truth value t, then there is another piece not-X with truth value (1-t). When you are playing the game, you can use that rule to create the 2nd piece (if it doesn't already exist) or alter the truth values of the pieces when one of them changes.

Now there is much(!) more to be said on this topic. I am just clarifying these ideas in my own mind as a direct result of this thread (thanks, garyrob). Hopefully this sketch will give you some idea about how I see Reason being much larger than the rules of inference. Sort of like how there is vastly more to the game of chess than the rules of how the pieces can move. But even to compare it to chess is an understatement. The whole field of mathematics is a subset of Reason. The whole enterprise of science is a subset of Reason.
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #70 on: 2003-01-08 09:35:05 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #71 on: 2003-01-08 09:49:15 »
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #72 on: 2003-01-08 12:56:45 »
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Quote from: garyrob on 2003-01-08 09:35:05   

I don't believe the Church of Virus has a protective framework, because to say "reason and empathy are equal" will mean in the real world that hate-oriented meme complexes will be hosted within the religion (IMHO). "Christians can't stop proselytizing Christianity; they are too infected with it. And Christianity has caused destruction all through history. Reason therefore says that for the greater good,  we need to kill all unrepentant Christians. Yes, empathy is supposed to be equal to reason, but it isn't MORE than reason. If it was MORE than reason, empathy would trump in this case and we couldn't kill the christians. But since neither trumps, we have to do what seems right according to our understanding of the overall pros and cons. And that is to kill the Christians."

OK, let's say that someone advocates killing Christians and backs it up with the argument above. We think it is a bad idea, and want to convice them that it is a bad idea. What is the better approach and why?

1) Your argument is fallacious for the following reasons...
2) Your conclusion breaks the golden rule, which supercedes reasoning.
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #73 on: 2003-01-08 13:00:27 »
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I've noticed you have mentioned Nazis in most of your messages. I'm curious about how you would apply the golden rule if you encountered Nazis. Would you treat them how you would like to be treated yourself? Conversely, if you don't want to be stopped from pursuing your own agenda, would you give them the same courtesy?
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Re:Unreason: a meme you need
« Reply #74 on: 2003-01-08 13:09:06 »
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