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Topic: virus: Reading the list (Read 2589 times) |
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
  
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Re: virus: Reading the list
« Reply #1 on: 2004-06-03 08:41:25 » |
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> Reading this list has become so unrewarding that I just delete the whole
> thing unread every few days.
Perhaps it was a mistake to lift the ban on war discussions. Are there any
subscribers left that agree?
David
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Hermit
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Prime example of a practically perfect person
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Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #2 on: 2004-06-03 10:27:19 » |
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[David Lucifer] Perhaps it was a mistake to lift the ban on war discussions. Are there any subscribers left that agree?
[Hermit] While it was, in my opinion, a "mistake" (see
Quote from: Hermit on 2004-06-03 10:08:04 | "RE: virus: Should Joe Dees be silenced once again?" |
), I suggest that the problem is not so much what is on the list as who is on the list - and what is not in place to handle perceived rudeness and insult timeously and effectively, wherever it occurs on the forums of the CoV. I suggest that the effect is that the kind of people who create the kind of discussion that attracts new and active members will not be particularly attracted by the CoV - and even those on the forums will tend to drift away.
The Lurking Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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simul
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Re: virus: Reading the list
« Reply #3 on: 2004-06-03 11:50:43 » |
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: the list as who is on the list - and
: what is not in place to handle p
I think a more comprehensive server-side filtering program would handle most of what we need.
What software is handling the list?
If it's c, perl or php I could write 3 basic features into the software:
block threads by topic
block users by name
autoblock threads initiated by user
That way anyone whining about not liking a certain user or thread can just block that user/thread.
Everyone could have their own block settings.
I could complete the feature in a few weekends (most of the time would be spent learning the code)
Sure, this can be done client-side, but not all clients support complex rules, and a server-side feature could have other advantages.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Matt Arnold
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Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #4 on: 2004-06-03 12:52:29 » |
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I recommend that war discussion be restricted to the BBS, and off the e-mail list. That way it's not being censored.
Due to the choiceless, inconvenient and restrictive nature of e-mail lists as contrasted with the flexibility, customization and interactivity of BBS browsing, an e-mail list should be tightly moderated if it's to be of any use to anyone. With e-mail lists, you have to take everything everybody dumps on you or just delete it all as HKH does. Those who post are unable to go back and edit their words, as you can on the BBS. Here on the BBS I can just choose to not read any thread on a topic that doesn't appeal to me. I have the BBS send me an e-mail when someone responds to a thread I have consciously, deliberately chosen to participate in, and I browse the indexes for such topics. I can't do that with the list.
The only reason I signed up for the e-mail list is for my name to be out there as someone who is active in Virus. When I signed up, I set my e-mail client to filter it out. This is not because I don't want to read it, but I get it from looking at the recent posts list on the BBS. So I don't think I miss much of what goes on in the list.
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He believed in a door. The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to.
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
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Re: Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #5 on: 2004-06-03 13:23:07 » |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt_Arnold" <mattarn@123.net>
> I recommend that war discussion be restricted to the BBS, and off the
e-mail list. That way it's not being censored.
Good idea, Matt. Effective immediately all messages on the topic of
terrorism and/or the war must be posted only to the Serious Business board
on the BBS. I will be the sole judge of which messages fit the bill. I will
strive to be reasonble, but best err on the side of caution.
Anyone that breaks this rule will be Silenced (banned from the list and BBS)
for 1 week, with the duration of the Silencing doubling on each successive
infraction.
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #6 on: 2004-06-03 14:18:20 » |
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[hkhenson] Reading this list has become so unrewarding that I just delete the whole thing unread every few days.
[David Lucifer]
Perhaps it was a mistake to lift the ban on war discussions. Are there any subscribers left that agree?
[rhinoceros]
My short answer is no.
My long answer would include a discussion of the following:
1. What is really the problem(s) mentioned by hkhenson -- what exactly bugs hkhenson and others -- and what's causing it?
Is it politics or obsession? We can try to identify it or we can do a wide sweep. In my personal opinion, the problem is Joe Dees obsession with pushing an agenda; he is not the only one pro-Bush, pro-Zionist and pro-war here, but he is the single anomaly in the list *and* and in the BBS.
2. What are we willing to give up to have the problem(s) resolved?
Politeness? Freedom of speech? Accepting "inference by bargaining"? Self-amputating our arguments by removing certain facts? If we are going to pay ransom, shouldn't we use the factual clues we have about the value of whatever is involved?
3. For what purpose do we want to solve that problem?
Do we expect any outcome from our involvement here? Do we, at least, expect some standards of discourse to be observed, and should we use any factual clues we have to decide what those standards are?
If the answer is "come on, this is a just a cool hangout", I might consider voting for "yes, ban politics" or "no", depending on my mood.
4. What is "war discussion"?
For example, is the following article "war discussion"?
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=30402
To my judgement, that was "psychology" because it was not concerned with government decisions. On the other hand, it *did* contain lots of trigger-words such as references to "Abu Ghraib", and to Lucifer's judgement it *was* political. I have no issue with that -- such a definition is just a demarcation, and I am just a guest in a cool place. But it should be noted that such demarcations define a policy.
BTW, you have possibly noticed that my position on these matters has shifted to a much more "clear-cut" one with time. It happens with age. Since I still have the second highest reputation rating in Meridion because of my past deeds, I would appreciate it if you go and update all your ratings in Meridion accordingly, just to keep things real.
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Drakeo Vortex
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Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #7 on: 2004-06-03 14:48:34 » |
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What's the point of reputation, polls, votes or just reading people's opinions in post with blatant title's. No one has done anything. If this group can't react to overwhelming majority of interest it will lose almost everyone especially more qualified people like hkhenson. It seems as if everyone is loseing interest. This place should be makeing progress everyday, speading like a "virus". I don't understand. The core, the fundamentals have been lost. Can't we get a little organization? Just a little.
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Matt Arnold
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Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #8 on: 2004-06-03 16:14:03 » |
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Rhinoceros,
nobody's banning war discussions. It's just going to be moved into a type of medium that is not pushed down everyone's throat. There's a difference.
An e-mail list is the memetic equivalent of a fire hose, and those who sign up will quickly tire of getting blasted indiscriminately with whatever comes out. A BBS, by contrast, is a memetic soda fountain with lots of flavors to choose from and plenty of control in the hands of the info-consumer. We have to excercise more control over what comes out of the fire hose or everybody will stop soaking in it, and then it would just go away.
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He believed in a door. The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to.
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hkhenson@rogers...
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back after a long time
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Re: virus: Reading the list
« Reply #9 on: 2004-06-03 19:14:42 » |
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At 08:41 AM 03/06/04 -0400, you wrote:
> > Reading this list has become so unrewarding that I just delete the whole
> > thing unread every few days.
>
>Perhaps it was a mistake to lift the ban on war discussions. Are there any
>subscribers left that agree?
War discussions are not the problem. In fact, my main interest in the last
year has been about the origin of war.
The problem is the *level* of the discussion. A memetics (and evolutionary
psychology) discussion list should be focused on the meta level and not the
level of specific current political arguments no matter what merit they may
have.
Current war discussion should only be brought up to illustrate a point.
Keith Henson
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rhinoceros
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My point is ...
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Re:virus: Reading the list
« Reply #10 on: 2004-06-03 20:47:34 » |
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[Matt Arnold]
Rhinoceros,
nobody's banning war discussions. It's just going to be moved into a type of medium that is not pushed down everyone's throat. There's a difference.
An e-mail list is the memetic equivalent of a fire hose, and those who sign up will quickly tire of getting blasted indiscriminately with whatever comes out. A BBS, by contrast, is a memetic soda fountain with lots of flavors to choose from and plenty of control in the hands of the info-consumer. We have to excercise more control over what comes out of the fire hose or everybody will stop soaking in it, and then it would just go away.
[rhinoceros]
Thanks Matt. I have been following your well-meaning posts. Perhaps your being new here makes it easier or you to keep hope alive.
Now, about the hose analogy: After cutting the flow of posts on Iraq (and maybe soon Palestine and Islamism), it is easy to have the same situation with a score of other political topics such as international treaties, Guantanamo Bay, the Patriot Act, civil rights and especially the right to a fair trial... and this is easy to happen even with our present actors.
With different actors everything is possible. In theory we might have to cut the flow of all posts on abortion if a perfectly nice nutcase decided to make it his day job to "spread the word" in our mailing list and BBS.
And all this is only about the second of the four questions I asked, that is "What are we willing to give up". The other three questions also need to be addressed.
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simul
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Re: virus: Reading the list
« Reply #11 on: 2004-06-03 21:58:22 » |
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I agree Keith. I wish you had been more vocal sooner. I've recently been considering dropping off as well. But, posts like yours (meta-discussion) make me realize that there is hope yet.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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simul
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Re: virus: Reading the list
« Reply #12 on: 2004-06-03 22:08:00 » |
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: interest. This place should be
: makeing progress everyday,
: speading like a "virus".
OK, how about a reputation-based referral program?
If you refer people who have negative reps, it affects you negatively... but if you refer people with positive reps, it affects you positively.
So, putting a link on a site could hurt you unless you were careful to craft your memes properly.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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JD
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RE: virus: Reading the list
« Reply #14 on: 2004-06-04 05:14:03 » |
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 03 June 2004 15:27
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: Reading the list
[David Lucifer] Perhaps it was a mistake to lift the ban on war discussions.
Are there any subscribers left that agree?
[Hermit] While it was, in my opinion, a "mistake" (see [quote from: Hermit
on 2004-06-03 at 08:08:04] "RE: virus: Should Joe Dees be silenced once
again?"), I suggest that the problem is not so much what is on the list as
who is on the list
[Jonathan] Seeking to render in your own image again huh? :-)
There is no problem with who is on the list. We have had a large number of
anti-US/anti-war posts by various esteemed members. Other esteemed members
have disputed the truth of those posts and counter posted pro-US and pro-war
posts. Where you have political diversity, you get passionate debate. It
worked for the ancient Greeks, so it can work for us too.
If it is agreed that the general topic of Iraq and US foreign policy is now
unhelpful, let us restrict discussion of it on this medium.
As for the playground "he called me names" type moans. Given the pettiness
of some of the statements, complaining about them borders on the unmanly.
Forget about repulsing potential members because of the tone and topic of
our debates (I think fatwas from CoV muftis or sporadic "dogma updates"
would be way more repulsive, but I digress) - it is the wimpishness that
will REALLY put them off.
Regards
Jonathan
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