From: Yash (yashk2000@yahoo.com)
Date: Sun Jan 13 2002 - 05:08:34 MST
I agree somewhat with what you say, Blunderov,
but see here: if I had given any other example, not related to
religious/spiritual areas, for instance, if I made up one example myself and
presented it, do you think we would have heard such crap?
Obviously not. It just shows how biased people can be. They just get sick if
ethey hear something like that. I do not suffer from such dogmatism,
especially the kind of dogmatism that the COV doesn't wish to accept. But it
is obvious from the ensuing posts that some do.
>Perhaps it is not important to you whether or not it is in fact true that
Pi
>is incorporated in this verse or not. Perhaps you are simply trying to find
>a way of describing the kind language you wish to design.
Exactly, to me that's another argument (whose exploration could also be
interesting if done in a proper way and an open-mind), but is not the point
discussed here.
>In a way you are saying:
>"It would be a good idea to create a language that has embedded
mathematical
>concepts, similar to the way that the Hindus embedded Pi (or the method for
>calculating it) into their writings"
Well, no, actually I didn't say that nor meant it as should be clear from
the post where I admit to Hermit that I cannot vouch for the authenticity of
such a thing. The only important thing to me at the time was:
1. Trying to build a language conducive to such things (i.e. storing
knowledge in a compressed format) similar to what that ode does.
2. Hermit's bashing of the Vedas solely because of a misappropriation of the
proper origin of Pi and the historical impossibility of such a thing
apparent to him.
See, in case #2, to me the flaw in the reasoning is "The Vedas are worthless
because Maharishi (bad) is involved with Vedic Mathematics".
The same point was correctly raised by Mermaid in her posts. The Vedas have
an intrinsic value in terms of rules and guidelines about living in society.
But see again, as I said and as was raised by Roly Sookias, Hermit couldn't
say the slightest encouraging thing about such an endeavour. He got himself
worked up about history and mention dates (I never mentioned dates myself)
in a sideline argument which degenerated into the age old science vs
religion argument.
As for the chronology of events, I can only recommend George Ifrah's Major
work on Mathematics which I have in a two-volume French Edition. He's a
historian of mathematics. Of course, the Net resources also show the
discoveries of some early Indian scholars.
To me, because religions have their failings, it doesn't mean that you
should reject all things said by religious people. That's fallacious
thinking.
Notice how Hermit doesn't answer me on the point where I ask him to read
Kepler's own account of the discoveries of the laws geoverning our planets.
One should do the same with Newton's works on gravity and the motion of
bodies. My question was: do you consider Kepler a 'Real Mathematician' in
his own terms.
Would we dismiss these works as utter crap solely because they came about by
the obviously religious mind-sets of their authors? Are their discoveries
completely valueless because according to their own accounts, these
searchers were guided by a will to know God (or His language or Mind or
whatever they were looking for)?
Are Kepler and Newton frauds and Charlatans? Of course not.
But see once more how some people will all too quickly accept Kepler and
Newton's discoveries and their undeniable intrinsic values even though they
are obviously (from the account of the Authors themselves) inspired by
religious or spiritual quest - and at the same time completely and
vociferously and with all manners of devious thinking, reject anything
having to do with the book I mentioned: "Vedic Mathematics".
Some of the exercises and methods have better value (as they are more
efficient) than some of Trachtenberg's method.
I hope you can clearly see that one can safely, for the sake of
investigating efficency in knowledge-storage in a natural+mathematical
language, explore the intrinsic values of such a system.
Exploring whether it is legitimate to claim that these things really are in
the Vedas or not are quite another story altogether. It's just as trying to
find out whether Kepler and/or Newton were right or wrong in being guided in
their explorations by their notion of a creator and the order that is
brought forth from his mind.
Now, if you would really like to help, I have been contacted by a
mathematician whose works include trying to unify "electromagnetism and
general relativity (aside from
what's already been done)" and who somehow stumbled on the posts although
he's not on the list.
This involves some very high-level concepts about the foundations of
mathematics and some theorems I'm not familiar with and seem to be weel over
my head (I'll have to seriously re-learn many things to be able to do some
proper discourse at the same level of that person). But he seems genuinely
interested so we could set up a mailing list for just that.
I have also devised two (imperfect) examples about storing knowledge about
circles which I can send you when I can my way around finishing a document
with the drawings in.
>If it is NOT true that the Hindus (or whoever) did this with their verses
>then you have not succeded in describing what you intend, or why it might
be
>useful.
I do not particularly care about that argument. It doesn't detract from what
I want to achieve.
>You are at liberty to choose another example. You are at liberty to find
>another way of describing your idea. But you cannot allow a turd to
continue
>to float in the well if you wish to retain the good will of a community
>which prizes clean water.
Well as you have seen, some seem to be enjoying trying to play with the
turd, I'll leave them to wallow in their own too.
Please do contact me if you would like to contribute some ideas as to how to
do the thing I was talking about. It's okay to be inspired by existing
examples. It's just a matter of seeing what we can reach with these
explorations.
Regards,
Yash.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
Of Blunderov
Yash
I would sincerely like to try and help.
You want to create a new language incorporating mathematical concepts. Fair
enough.
You cite,as an example of the kind of language you want to create,a Hindu
verse with Pi alledgedly encrypted into it.
Perhaps it is not important to you whether or not it is in fact true that Pi
is incorporated in this verse or not. Perhaps you are simply trying to find
a way of describing the kind language you wish to design.
But it is important.
In a way you are saying:
"It would be a good idea to create a language that has embedded mathematical
concepts, similar to the way that the Hindus embedded Pi (or the method for
calculating it) into their writings"
If it is NOT true that the Hindus (or whoever) did this with their verses
then you have not succeded in describing what you intend, or why it might be
useful.
You are at liberty to choose another example. You are at liberty to find
another way of describing your idea. But you cannot allow a turd to continue
to float in the well if you wish to retain the good will of a community
which prizes clean water.
You must either persuade the community that it is not a nasty floater at
all, or you must remove it. You can't just leave it there and say it's not
important.
Your friend
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