From: Dr Sebby (drsebby@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Feb 26 2002 - 02:26:59 MST
....2 small points. first....a half gallon of milk lasts you a week?? it
lasts me a day at the absolute most. in fact, if i have several gallons in
the fridge(therefore no need to worry about running out) i'll probably drink
about .75 -1 gallon on a given day.
...second: the best diet food i know and use outside of fish or fake
crab(pollock) is steak. if i have no seafood, i will eat a steak after
every trip to the gym....very little fat..few carbs really and tons of
protein. it works great.
drsebby.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mermaid ." <britannica@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: to hermit: Lets not beat around the meat.
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:25:43 -0800
[Hermit]La, la Mermaid, such emotionalism. You are quite devoid of meat to
beat..
[Mermaid]Just for the record...I would like to point out that the above
statement is a 'bait'. But what else can be expected out of you? Will you
invite me to your birthday bash...you know..when you turn 5?
[Mermaid]I see that you are upto mischief again. Purposefully distorting and
quoting out of context by lumping my 'pet peeves' with my stance on
consuming meat. Maybe I should ignore you, but I am going to play this until
you bore me.
[Hermit]So few facts. And the few “facts” presented are wrong. Cannibalism
is very common in animals. It is a good source of cheap protein, although it
carries rather nasty risks of infection (see BSD/CJS etc.).
[Hermit] Do you know why piglets need to have their teeth cut? If it is not
done, they bite their mothers nipples and then the other pigs will
cannibalize them - usually while alive. The pigs don't mind the smell of
blood. They like it, because they recognize what you apparently do not. That
it is not the “stench of death”, it is the smell of life. Carefully refined
from plants at great cost (it takes upwards of 7 Joules of plant energy to
produce 1 Joule of protein energy).
[Hermit]Next, chickens. Aside from doves, chickens are probably the most
vicious birds - and the most cannibalistic. Any poultry farmer will tell you
that most roosters will break any eggs that were not fertilized by him, or
that contain another rooster - or will kill any chicks unless kept carefully
separately. And all of the chickens that can get to the remains will eat the
contents of the eggs or the bodies of the chicks.
[Mermaid]So do felines for that matter. wrt their newborn when their hunting
instincts smother their maternal instincts. Its a common phenomena. But no
cat or pig or rooster attacks anything bigger than a newborn of its own
species for its daily sustenance.
[Mermaid]As usual..more irrelevant noise from you.
[Hermit]Most animals, don't even have to think about the implications of
cannibalism, they realize that meat is just meat; quite a sensible attitude
if you think about it. Visualize eating your mother. Shades of Monty Python.
[Mermaid]I think they do. It's called 'survival instinct'. If a species
start to devour its own kind, they will cease to exist. Conflicting survival
instinct results when an animal's hunting instinct kicks in to feed itself
while attacking its own kind.
Now let's deal with the rest of your “lesson” in animal husbandry.
[Hermit] Do you know how organic pork is grown? “Organic” pigs are
distributed in small high-density groups, and are not given antibiotics or
high-protein feed. Which means that they live much less comfortable lives
than those in the industrialized farms. Then, should a pig become sick, the
entire barn is put onto antibiotics - and that entire batch is sent down the
“non-organic” processing track as fast as possible. When they don't get
sick, they go down the "organic" track.
[Mermaid]There ya go! Another reason why people should shun pork.
[Hermit] The large cattle raising operations are doing the same. Keeping
them "organic" and off antibiotics until they develop a disease (often
mastitis) and then you butcher them and push the next batch through. Which
results in more diseased animals, and lower production. But while there are
nuts prepared to pay a couple of dollars a pound more for "organic meat" the
policy returns handsome dividends (about $800 to $1000 more per head).
[Mermaid]ok..ok..I get it...these are actually reasons why people should
turn 'veggie'.
[Hermit] Do I approve? Only partially. I wish that we reserved our most
effective antibiotics for humans, for it sometimes seems to me that we are
creating a Darwinian environment which ensures that only the most lethal
bacteria survive. But animals - and humans - in high density conditions
require careful management to prevent the spread of disease. And antibiotics
are one of the cheapest management practices.
[Mermaid]I agree? Assuming that you are expressing the same sentiment that I
have attempted to convey below.
[Mermaid]I believe that there is too much consumption amongst the
meat-eating population that seriously compromises the quality of the goods
that come out. It seems especially incongrous to hear arguments from people
like DrSebby who believe in small populations to create better quality of
life in our world. While, human beings are much more precious and pay back
in full and more of what is invested to maintain them..animals for
consumption offer little back in terms of health advantages because of the
sheer number of animals reared for eating at
breakfast/lunch/dinner/snacktime. Keep in mind that meat costs less than
fresh produce in this country. A slightly steeper price for the meat
products will present double rewards - better quality and price control
which in turn will regulate the amount of meat consumed. One hopes that
people will still eat the required amounts of meat which is of a better
quality. Because there is no rush to produce animals to be frozen for
beating the market competition, hopefully the animals would be treated
better and have better care per head.
[Hermit] Given how much people do not wish to pay for food, I don't blame
the agricultural industry for trying to find the most bang-for-the-buck - or
the pharmaceutical industry for supplying their
largest clients - who buy antibiotics by the ton, rather than the pill.
[Mermaid]I'd blame them and I'd blame the general populace too. Stupidity
and mindless gluttony has to be mocked whenever and wherever possible.
[Hermit]Which is why the better antibiotics tend to hit the farms at about
the same time as they hit the hospitals.
Now to milk.
[Hermit] Extolling the virtues of "organic milk" drunk warm from the cow is
completely unrealistic. Imagining that "organic" implies a bucolic heaven
where cows are carefully milked by caring cowmen, who call them by name, is
a fantasy. The cost of hand-milking would lead to a price in excess of $5
per gallon, and the bacteria counts would go through the roof... along with
far more bovine mastitis - which is a major reason why farmers use milking
machines even where labor is cheaper - it cuts down on bovine disease and
cross-infection.
[Mermaid]Random organic milk search:http://www.horizonorganic.com/
from: http://www.horizonorganic.com/about/farming.html
So what exactly is an organic dairy farm? An organic dairy farm uses no
harmful pesticides. To be certified organic, farmland must be free of
synthetic pesticides, herbicides and fungicides for at least three years.
After this transition period, the farmland may be used to grow organic crops
that are used to produce feed for dairy cows.
While we grow plenty of organic feed, our farms simply don't boast the
acreage or climate necessary to grow all the food included in our cows'
nutritionally-balanced diets. So we buy from organic family farmers around
the world what we can't grow ourselves. We purchase organic feed (for
instance, hay, alfalfa and oats), as well as product ingredients such as
organic blueberries for our yogurt and organic cocoa for our chocolate milk.
One constituent of organic farming is keeping the soil healthy. In
maintaining and improving the soil quality, Horizon Organic Dairy farms use
several methods, including effective crop rotation, tillage procedures, and
a practice known as composting, which turns waste, including manure, into
rich, black earth that produces healthier crops and releases the soil
nutrients slowly so that none are lost to the waterways. One of the major
benefits of organic agriculture is that organic matter remains in the soil,
thus increasing beneficial microbes and resistance to erosion.
Caring for Our Animals
The lifeblood of our business -- our cows -- are never given hormones nor
antibiotics. They also must be fed only 100% certified organic hay and
grain. Needless to say, we don't mess around when it comes to taking care of
our cows. The cows at Horizon Organic Dairy are milked three times each day,
which relieves the udder of unnecessary stress and painful milk build-up.
When our cows are sick, our herdsmen and herdswomen treat them with aspirin,
massage, and other natural remedies. Should a cow's condition worsen to the
extent that she needs an antibiotic, she is treated and brought back to
health, but not returned to the milking herd.
<snip>
[Mermaid]My milk carton says "The Organic Cow of Vermont" It costs me $3.69/
half gallon. That lasts for more than a week and its better tasting than the
'regular' whole milk. Dont diss it before you try it.
[Hermit]As for the ridiculous idea of selling whole-fat milk straight from
the cow, I doubt many consumers would know what to do with it or how to
handle it. The human stomach cannot handle whole milk except in miniscule
quantities (which won't provide you enough calcium to avoid osteoporosis).
[Mermaid]Mine can. I need dairy and I am *very* lactose tolerant except with
some of those interesting cheeses. I am more dependent on buttermilk than I
am on whole milk. Considering I used to make my own cream, ghee<Indian
clarified butter>, buttermilk and curds from our cows milk, I know for a
fact that cows milk is much more creamier than the 'whole milk' available in
the dairy aisles. The 'whole milk' that I consume now is milk which little
or no cream.
[Mermaid]I said nothing about 'selling whole-fat milk straight from the
cow'. I said that personally, I believe that whole milk rocks and is way
better tasting than 'fat free' milk.
[Hermit] Traditionally milk would have been chilled (while breeding
bacteria) and separated before being used. And if not pasteurized and
homogenized milk sours in a day (or why ghee is popular in a certain warm
country lacking in refrigeration facilities and having a vast excess of
cows) - which would greatly increase consumption, and lead to more cows
being required. A lot more cows. Which would need more feed. A lot more
feed. Which would take more water. A lot more water. And land. A lot more
land. And fuel, fertilizer, pesticide, etc. All of which are expensive and
not particularly good for the environment. Which is why we don't do it that
way any more.
[Mermaid]Milkman milks the cow. The milk is boiled. Milk is chilled. The
cream is removed and usually stored in the refridgerator<India has fridges
too..duh..when do you think GE came out with an ice box in the US? lets see
if you can come up with the year, Chuckles and I will tell you when India
sold its first fridge.> Indian mothers and wives have been making milk,
butter and buttermilk for centuries. A couple of hundred years ago, the
cream would have been kept in an earthern pot and it would be floating on
water in a cool corner of the house or hung from the <very high> ceiling of
the house. The cream is churned to make butter. The butter is melted to make
ghee. Warmth has nothing to do with why people make ghee.<sheesh!...you
really dont know as much as you think you do>. The warm climate actually
makes it impossible to keep the cream for more than a week or so which means
fresh ghee every week! However, its because of the warm climate that the
milk is converted to curds<which usually doesnt contain the cream>. The
warmth facilitates the bacteria to make the milk into curds. The curds are
then made into buttermilk. In some parts of the country, cottage cheese can
be made at home. It is called paneer. And then there is
'khoya'..'mawa'..these are typically north indian. I have no idea what that
is though. So milk translates into several forms. I know at least one
dessert that is made with milk gone bad. Milk is just not milk. Milk can
take several forms and tastes. Milk is usually delivered everyday to most
households. There are usually no 'leftover' milk because curds are made out
of whatever is left. Little is consumed. Little is wasted and every form of
milk imaginable is created.
[Mermaid]BTW...The comment about the whole milk< as well as the comment
about undercooked meat that ben bought up were my personal preferences and i
did say 'pet peeve' didnt I?> has nothing to do with the my views on the
indiscriminate stuffing of food by certain food lovers at the risk of dying
early of heart disease, cholestrol or some such malaise.not to mention the
nonsense about 'animals dont feel pain' and 'i am proud of my place in the
food hierarchy'. Dont both of you have anything else to do other than to
criticise my personal preferences and irrationally lump it up with certain
other valid disagreements I have with meat eaters?
[Hermit] In addition to bacterial risks, about 60% of the US (and Northern
European) population is not very good at handling saturated fats.
[Mermaid]It seems that they are not good at handling a lot of things.
[Mermaid]I dont recall saying, 'drink more milk'. I said that if you are
going to drink milk...drink less, but drink the best tasting, wholesome milk
available even if its a tad more expensive. Maybe I was hoping that cost
will be deterring factor when people choose to fill their stomachs with
hormone laden blood stained milk. In fact, I was very clear about that.
[Hermit]Which, in those who appear to be as uneducated as you in these
matters, would lead to obesity and cholesterol problems. Put them on
anything more than 4% milk, and you would probably reduce their lives by 20%
or more. Not a particularly “nice” kind of an idea.
[Mermaid]You are right despite the bitchy tone you took. I guess my genetic
composition makes me more tolerant to most food groups.
[Hermit]These are the reasons, not really based on human health (except in
so far as it modifies buying habits), but economics and a desire not to
cause uneccessary harm (which come into most farming decisions), which have
lead to industrialized agriculture becoming dominant.
[Mermaid]The above sentence doesnt make any sense to me.
[Hermit]The result is that more humans live a better and longer life than
ever before - and there are more cows (and pigs, and chickens) alive than
ever before too. And these are all healthier than ever before (except in
southern Asia perhaps), as well. You could say that they have done as well
for themselves as a prey species can.
[Mermaid]Really? Do more humans live a better and longer life than ever
before because of increased meat consumption? Or were you saying something
else?
[Mermaid]I do not believe that there is a necessity for an increased
population of cows, pigs and chicken. I dont think it is necessary for
humans to keep eating meat just because it is available. This trend amongst
the 'rich' nations is unfortunately not very dissimilar to the behaviour
patterns of the 'nouveau riche'. "It's there...so lets eat it."..."I can
freeze more dead cows, so lets make and kill more cows." This is a dangerous
trend and one that has contributed to the curse of obesity and unhealthy
food habits of at least one nation.
[Hermit]PS, the reason that at least some meat is essential to a healthy
diet is that there are essential acids (and minerals) that we cannot absorb
except in the presence of animal protein. Taking supplements is generally
speaking a futile exercise as we tend to shit/piss most of it straight out
again - as we have spent millenia developing a digestive system capable of
extracting what we need from plants and animal tissue. When we take it in
the form of a supplement, our body doesn’t recognize it – unless in the
presence of material which would normally supply us with those particular
substances
anyway. The end result is that long-term “vegan vegetarians” tend to live
shorter lives (actuarial studies), become scatterbrained as they age (known
factor in geriatric medicine) and often develop very bad tempers (personal
and shared observation). These consequences can be staved off, but
apparently not evaded, by taking supplements at the same time as eating
appropriate high protein plant material (beans and nuts). Of course, the
last is not a particularly healthy dietary regime… and the fact that humans
are relatively long lived, but with great variance in life expectancy,
disguises how very unhealthy a vegetarian lifestyle really is.
[Mermaid]I have never advocated a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle over a
nonvegetarian diet. I only have trouble with the excesses of the meat-eating
population alongwith the callousness of their disregard for life and rights
of animals.
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DrSebby.
"Courage...and shuffle the cards".
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