From: Hermit (virus@hermit.net)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 10:13:03 MDT
[Hermit 1]Bear in mind as you read this, that the "Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus" does not aspire to "judgement", is not based in law and does not impose punishments. Instead, it is based on establishing community relationships and is intended to make our community a pleasant place for all of its memebers, through a process which insists on appropriate behaviour and a graduated scale of sanctions intended to persuade members to conform to desired and expected behavior.
[Mermaid 2]I see the words 'sanctions' and 'appropriate behaviour' and yet you insist that its not about punishment or judgement. When members are 'persuaded to conform to desired and expected behaviour', how is not based on law?
[Hermit 3] The difference being that instead of an interest in "punishment", or even in "equity", we are interested only in the community, our members, and our ability to support and disseminate our religion. Thus, even when a member has engaged in "wrong action" our sole interest is in reestablishing that member within the community while preserving the community's ability to function effectively. Even when a member shows by their words and repeated actions that they are incompatible with the community, they are not "punished, they are simply "disowned" by the community and continue to live their lives as and how they would. In otherwords, rather like a "no fault" divorce, even the most disruptive people are not, in any way, "punished" for incompatibility.
[Mermaid 2]I understand that the members have a duty towards CoV. What about the members' expectations of CoV?
[Hermit 3] Like any church, and indeed, due to Meridion, to a far greater extent than than other churches, the CoV is no more (or less) than the sum of its members. Meridion allows the CoV to be directed directly by the membership in order to facilitate our objective of evolving.
[Mermaid 2]I suggest that we have an IRC chat preceding the Disciplinary Process chat that discusses in depth about the expectations and needs of the members who form CoV. Before we agree to conform to 'desired and expected behaviour', I think we need to know if there is any compatibility between members and CoV. Rest assured, the second IRC chat will be less chaotic and rewarding for the members if they are comforted with the knowledge that their voluntary conformity is for something valuable they recieve from CoV.
[Hermit 3] This seems unneccessarily laborious. Firstly the current rules are already established, through votes of the CoV, and this meeting is to explain them and their application. Secondly, as the the CoV is defined by its membership within the overriding environment of the "Goals", "Sins" and "Virtues". Thirdly, as you are fully aware, this goes for the IRC channel too. Except when formal discussions are occuring, the topic in the channel is decided by the membership of the moment. Fourthly, during the scheduled chat, formal channel rules will be in place, and as always, disruptive behaviour will be discouraged. As this has seldom been an issue in the past, I don't anticipate chaos to ensue. Why do you?
[Hermit 1]In addition, once a member of the congregation's reputation is sufficiently high, they are able to discuss "management issues" in the Cathedral section of the BBS and contribute to the development of policy on the Wiki.
[Mermaid 2]Management issues pertaining to what? How we are managed? i.e. how will non conformity be punished and who will be the language nazi? OR management issues like: What is the function of CoV in the real world? How are we *really* competing with other religions? Are we reaching out to others or does the general populace find us by a random google search?
[Hermit 3] We are self-managed, as the rules are put in place by the community. As the rules and members are selected by the community within the ambit of the environment set by our "Goals", "Sins" and "Virtues", they will change over time, moderated by he fact that a community will usually regard its better known, and thus, typically, longer standing members with greater respect, ensuring a reasonable degree of continuity and stability in the medium term.
[Hermit 3] I suggest that you read the "Disciplinary Process." Once you have, you will understand that all members have the right, at all times, to correspond with each other privately if they feel unhappy, and to call for a reconciliation committee if they cannot resolve an issue amongst themselves. The reconciliation committee can take any action they deem necessary to protect the interests of the CoV (see our main Website) and as the CoV is made up of its members, of our members.
[Hermit 3] I suggest you study "memetics" and "critical mass" to learn how a memetic community grows if it does not chase people away faster than it attracts them.
[Mermaid 2]If its the latter, shouldnt we discuss those issues first before this proposed Disciplinary Process IRC chat?
[Hermit 3] I'm not sure how you see this linkage as being necessary? We are providing an opportunity to discuss the Disciplinary Process. Not proselytizing. Not redefining our goals. Not establishing sub tasks. All of these things are indeed important and all Virians are always invited to contribute to them. But I really can't see the logic you used to connect them. Perhaps you would like to write a paper explaining what you mean and why you see this as important. Speaking for myself, I can think of nothing more important than explaining the processes we are already using and perhaps, if there is time, some of the thinking about the future.
[Mermaid 2]I think there has to be other issues to be discussed before the Disciplinary Process is discussed. I, for one, would like to know what I am getting back in return before I sign up to be tried for non conformity to desired and expected behaviour.
[Hermit 3] As far as I am aware, there is no duress involved in any aspect of the CoV. Certainly, none was intended. If you feel this assurance is incorrect, please point it out. If you don't like the processes adopted by the community, you can conform to them, attempt to change them, be subjected to them, or depart. Nobody here that I know of would dream of forcing you to do anything you choose not to. If you feel this is not the case, I suggest that you drop Lucifer a note explaining who has done it and how this is being done.
[Hermit 1]Finally a note on the naming of this topic. While today, discipline often means what is done to other people - and in such a way that they probably won't enjoy it, in earlier times discipline refered mainly to a way of living. Living in such a way as to benefit yourself and your community and maximising your ability to reach your potential. This is the form of discipline that the Church of Virus hopes to achieve.
[Mermaid 2]So, in earlier times and according to the earlier meaning, discipline is voluntary and 'understood' rather than imposed...right?
[Hermit 3] As is the disciplinary process documented here. Our community reserves the right to withdraw itself or our facilities when this is called for in terms of the Disciplinary Process, but no discipline can be imposed on a member except with that members agreement. Consider for a moment how ridiculous any other approach would be. How could I, using an example in place (see Ref [5.5.1], force you to write a paper about a group?
[Hermit 3] Like most words, this one has migrated over time. Quoting from "Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)":[*]Discipline Dis`ci*pline, n. F. discipline, L. disciplina, from discipulus. See Disciple. 1. The treatment suited to a disciple or learner; education; development of the faculties by instruction and exercise; training, whether physical, mental, or moral.
[*]Disciple Dis*ci"ple, n. OE. disciple, deciple, OF. disciple, fr. L. discipulus, fr. discere to learn (akin to docere to teach; see Docile) + prob. a root meaning to turn or drive, as in L. pellere to drive (see Pulse). One who receives instruction from another; a scholar; a learner; especially, a follower who has learned to believe in the truth of the doctrine of his teacher; an adherent in doctrine; as, the disciples of Plato; the disciples of our Savior.
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