virus: Help me Help you
« on: 2003-08-04 12:22:02 »
I have lowered my rating of everyone one notch. I will increase the rating of anyone who can suggest to me a real-life (not cyberspace) task I can perform that furthers the goals of the CoV. Preferably this task will also result in my gaining more CoV influence. We shall see.
Re: virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #1 on: 2003-08-04 18:53:08 »
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kalkor" <kalkor@kalkor.com> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:22 PM
> I have lowered my rating of everyone one notch. I will increase the rating > of anyone who can suggest to me a real-life (not cyberspace) task I can > perform that furthers the goals of the CoV. Preferably this task will also > result in my gaining more CoV influence. We shall see.
I would like to know exactly what it would take to get the CoV registered as a recognized religion by the federal govt of the USA. This may require a combination of online and offline research.
> I have lowered my rating of everyone one notch. I will increase the > rating of anyone who can suggest to me a real-life (not cyberspace) > task I can perform that furthers the goals of the CoV. Preferably this > task will also result in my gaining more CoV influence. We shall see. > > Awaiting suggestions! > Figure out how to rate the differing truth-claims of competing religious or political ideologies from a perspective outside of both of them. > > Kalkor > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Re:virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #3 on: 2003-08-04 19:17:28 »
"I have lowered my rating of everyone one notch. I will increase the rating of anyone who can suggest to me a real-life (not cyberspace) task I can perform that furthers the goals of the CoV. Preferably this task will also result in my gaining more CoV influence. We shall see."
1> Canvass the local college for atheists and freethinkers. Form a local chapter of the CoV and pursue Davids suggestion with a group behind you. Be sure there are regular face to face meetings, a promise not to go nuts on political rants, and the collective desire to be good people to those around you.
2> Take up a collection. The CoV needs money and something as simple as collecting all the cans from your workplace and recycling them could mean money in the coffers. My office for example fills a 30 gallon trash bin with cans every few days. In Michigan this would be big money - in AZ it is not.
3> Volunteer your time, but offer it in the name of the CoV. Make us a cheritable organization.
4> Don't scare the religious folk of society. We need friends in other religions, not fearful enemies.
RE: virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #4 on: 2003-08-04 20:17:44 »
[Joe] Figure out how to rate the differing truth-claims of competing religious or political ideologies from a perspective outside of both of them.
[Kalkor] Excellent! Now we're getting somewhere! David's suggestion was self-explanatory, imho, but I have some points I want to clarify from yours.
1) When you say rate, do you mean in reference to each other? More/less truthful? More/less valuable? Would you prefer a scale or just a more/less? For example, giving each memeset a numerical rating on a scale of 1-10, or saying "X is more truthful than Y"?
2) Would it be wise or foolish, in your opinion, to address each truth-claim of a particular memeset and, once reaching something that is false, discard the entire memeset as false? Or would this only be advisable in the cases where a supporting premise of the memeset is 'this memeset is true'? And why?
3) How would this be valuable to the church? As a tool to teach rational thought to neophytes? As a compendium we could publish? As a method to counter arguments?
My first answer, I suppose, would be a 3 step process. 1) Tear the ideology down to basic premises or hypotheses. Count these premises (until the volume becomes prohibitive) up to a certain number (10? 100?). 2) Analyze each premise for logical consistency. When you reach one that is false, or inconsistent, stop. 3) Count how far you got and that's your rating. If the basic premise is a fallacy, then the memeset recieves a rating of 0.
I suppose you would need to use the popularly published compendium of the ideology to begin the process. Manifesto? Bible? etc
Using Xtianity as an example, you could go about it two ways: 1) Use "god exists" as the basic hypothesis, or something of that nature. Since the hypothesis is non-falsifiable, the entire memeset would get a rating of 0. 2) Start reading the "old testament" from the beginning. "in the beginning, god created the heavens and earth". The earth was created, but consensus is that it happened through coalescence of particles ejected from stars, not by a concious being. That "god" created it is non-falsifiable. But stating that requires stating "god exists" which brings us back to #1, and the memeset recieves a score of 0.
Looking forward to the next step in this discussion!
Let me furnish you with a real-world example, so you can try out different approaches on it...
Pro-Israel people are accused by anti-Israel people of ignoring distinctions between Arabs (many Arabs are not Muslim), Muslims (most Muslims are not Arabs), and jihadist Wahhabi terrorists (who espouse a violent and vurulent minority mutational subset of Islam, and are predominately, but not entirely, Arab), and of covertly attacking Islam and Arabs when they critique the Wahhabist fantasy ideology. Anti-Israel people are accused by Pro-Israel people of ignoring distinctions between Jews, Israelis (not all of whom are Jews), Semites (which include Jews and Palestinians - they are both susceptible to the genetically based malady of Tay-Sach's disease) and Zionists (many Jews, both inside and outside of Israel, are not Zionists), and of covertly attacking Jews when they critizice Zionist ideology or the actions of the state of Israel. Each side, in other words, accuses the other of racism under the cover of religious and/or ideological critique. Each side also accuses the other side of pointing out nonexistent sawdust motes in the eyes of the opposing members whilst ignoring the ship's masts obstructing their own vision. Both sides are right and both are wrong to some degree, but to what degree? Is a truly objective and independent evaluation of their competing claims possible, and if so, can such an evalustion help to resolve or at least ameliorate differences, or are all 'true believer' extremists, regardless of the content of the memeset to which they are in thrall, immune to such evaluations, and pre-programmed to memebotically filter them out? To solve this dilemma could help us VALIDLY and SOUNDLY criticize other perspectives in a convincing manner and possibly win us adherents, and also help us avoid similar pitfalls whilst engineering our own phaith.
[Lucifer] I would like to know exactly what it would take to get the CoV registered as a recognized religion by the federal govt of the USA. This may require a combination of online and offline research.
[Demon] Look into incorporation as a non-profit organization. Also find an appropriate SIC code. If Wiccans can organize a legally recognized religion, http://www.homecircle.org, so can the CoV.
RE: virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #7 on: 2003-08-04 22:50:10 »
[David] I would like to know exactly what it would take to get the CoV registered as a recognized religion by the federal govt of the USA. This may require a combination of online and offline research.
Interested?
David
[Kalkor] Certainly! In my brief web search, I came across several interesting points. The First Ammendment of the United States Constitution provides protection for religions.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
In this respect, there shall be no law respecting an establishment of religion. However, as recently as 1985:
1985, Dettmer v Landon (617 F Supp 592) the District Court of Virginia pursuant to rule 52 (a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure ruled that Witchcraft is a legitimate religion and falls within a recognizable religious category. http://www.celticcrow.com/community/nfedlaw.html
This appears to be for the purpose of recognizing Wicca as a religion so that it may be protected under the First Ammendment of the United States Constitution.
I haven't been able to find the text of this ruling. Anyone?
There are some interesting legal aspects of religion in the united states: Section 7605(c) of the IRS Code prohibits the IRS from examining the books and records of any church. An ordained minister can legally perform weddings.
Your goal may be as simple as someone becoming an ordained minister from the Universal Life Church (www.ulc.org). This is a free service, and they have a very interesting FAQ section which outlines procedures like having the nonprofit congregation funds pay for the minister's health insurance. I think nonprofit requires 501(c)(3) status. Having a congregation with 501(c)(3) status basically means that any donations to the congregation are non-taxable federally. In addition, they can be used for pretty much anything the congregation wants to use them for, records must be kept but cannot be investigated by the IRS without a court order. Here's an example of one of the FAQ questions:
73. What types of investments and incomes may churches have?
It has been the policy of the Federal Government to actually promote organized religion by granting it almost total tax immunity. All income that accrues to a non-profit church is tax exempt (with the exception of unrelated business income). There are about six different kinds of church income, five of which are totally tax exempt.
1) Donation Income - All money and property donated or willed to a church or otherwise received from it's church members is tax exempt. A church may perform any type of service or engage in any business activity for the benefit of its members without paying taxes on the income.
2) Fund Raising Activity Income - Whenever a church sponsors a fund raising activity and charges admission, the income is tax exempt. All income that is generated by various church members by donating their services in return for contributions to their church is tax exempt.
3) Passive Church Investment Income - All income earned by a church via its own investments in stock, bonds, rental properties, bank accounts, etc. is tax exempt. A passive investment is any investment that does not require day to day management and supervision by the directors of the church.
4) Capital Gains Income - Any income or profit realized by a church from the sale of church owned assets is tax exempt.
5) Related Business Income - any income that accrues to a church from a business venture that can be justified one the basis that the business is related to the mission of the church is tax exempt. Several examples of related business income can be found throughout the Catholic Church with regard to the radio and television stations that the church owns and operates. Churches are also engaged in publishing as well as the life insurance business. The Lutheran Church maintains a $3 billion insurance fund exclusively for church members.
6) Unrelated Business Income - Church can own and operate any kind of business. If the IRS can prove in court that the income from a particular business venture is not related to the overall mission of the church, then it can force the church to pay taxes on the inceome. The most famous and recent example of this is when the IRS finally forced the Christian Brothers Winery to pay income taxes on the revenue they received from the production and sale of liquor related products.
www.startchurch.com offers a kit to start your own church, which is a 4-step process: 1) Incorporate (business license for the state, articles of incorporation) 2) Get an F.E.I.N. http://www.ccsfo.com/fein/fein.htm 3) Write constitution and bylaws (appoint board of directors etc) 4) Get federal nonprofit status 501(c)(3)
from http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/stch.html : What is a corporation? According to Black’s Law Dictionary it is "an artifical person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state; an association of persons created by statute of a legal entity". Now when a church receives a 501(c)3 license; i.e. incorporates itself; it diminishes it’s status into a "charitable organization." Government-licensed charities are subject to regulation under what is termed "public policy." This is because the religious charitable organization is a law termed as a "quasi-public corporation." [397 US 664, 25 L Ed 2d 704] ... In September of 1997, the 104th Congress passed a bill that turns over all religious institutions of America to the IRS. Clinton signed it in July of 1997. It is called the Tax Payer Bill of Rights [HR 23337]. ... In March of 1999, Clinton signed a bill that gave the UN control over all religious institutions of America.
I haven't had a chance to verify these items, but they would seem to be potential problems with establishing a nonprofit church in the USA.
Any input on this thread would be more than welcome! I have to run off to a party with a buncha artists now. School tomorrow, busy busy, then harvesting peas with a friend out in the country on Wednesday. So, I wont be writing as prolifically as I have today for a while. But I am here! And I'm reading, watching, and filtering. And I'll get to your suggestions, Bill, as soon as I can. One thing at a time. Thank you all for suggesting tasks. I would encourage the rest of you to request tasks and to perhaps take on some of those that Bill suggested.
> > [Lucifer] > I would like to know exactly what it would take to get the CoV > registered as a recognized religion by the federal govt of the USA. > This may require a combination of online and offline research. > > [Demon] > Look into incorporation as a non-profit organization. Also find an > appropriate SIC code > (http://www.census.gov/epcd/naics/NDEF813.HTM#N8131). If Wiccans can > organize a legally recognized religion, www.homecircle.org, so can the > CoV. > You need to fill out a 501(c)(3) form. Go to:
Re:virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #9 on: 2003-08-05 01:19:39 »
I will assume that David Lucifer is primarily interested in "tax exempt status" as incorporation and registration is not needed except for that (and it is not obligatory (although that has risks) even for this purpose, because as long as a church meets the requirements for tax-exempt staus under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, it is entitled to act as if it was registered). The risk is that not registering makes it much more likely that an appeal against an IRS ruling would fail. The primary benefit of registering is that the CoV would likely be able to attract grants and donations from organizations which are themselves organized as non profit organizations and thus proscribed from gifting any organization not so registered.
To qualify as exempt an organization must have certain attributes and pass two classes of tests.
Firstly, an "organizational test". To satisfy this test, an administration would need to be in place, along with an approval system, and a codified set of articles and bylaws approved by the members in terms of the articles and bylaws*. As noted above, a church is classed as a non-profit organization (whether formally tax exempt or not) and thus the nonprofit corporation law in the state where the church is incorporated governs what must and what may not be included in the articles and bylaws. It should be noted that the IRS requires that the bylaws not exceed or omit what is allowed or required under state guidelines, and the state guidelines tend to change on a regular basis. This is why most churches register a "parent" organization and then affiliated congregations file on a state by state basis.
The second qualification is an "operational test" which requires the organization operate within its governing documents and qualifications to be tax exempt. All churches must meet both tests at all times to retain their tax-exempt status.
The IRS and States (because not all States exclude churches of tax obligations) have successfully challenged many self-asserted churches. A reasonable defense is the above, together with organized writings describing the religion and requirements for membership, together with regular scheduled services open to all members.
The church would need to appoint a board resident in the US and if sub-organizations are formed, in each state in which they register. While indemnity can be provided, this falls within the state limitation for indemnity where the organization is registered, where the board members are resident and where they practice their religion. In practice the members of such a board would be jointly and severally liable at least to the IRS for any repayment of any breach or penalty assessed under the IRS codes. In addition the governing board may be held responsible for any civil action taken against the church, or any failure to maintain appropriate records depending on the way in which the indemnities are structured.
To obtain formal recognition as a church from the IRS, we would have to file a Form 1023 (see also Form 1023 help), which will include the articles and bylaws and any other supporting information, and pay a $500 filing fee. We would also need to obtain an employer identification number (EIN) (no cost) by completing the one-page application, Form SS-4. Additional information is available at http://www.irs.gov/charities/index.html.
If despite the above we choose to take this route note that all political posts and current affairs and commentary would have to be removed from the BBS as churches (and most other tax-exempt organizations) are not legitimately able to participate in the political process while maintaining 503(c) status. A single complaint could lead to a situation where taxes and penalties, as well as accounting and legal fees become an issue. Secondly all posts made would need to be vetted before posting so as to manage liability issues (although there are ways to minimize the latter which I can discuss off the record).
As to the performance of marriages, I suggest that the simplest answer is to do what I did, and that is to become a minister in some recognized church (when doing so, notice that the founder of the ULC has IIRC been jailed on multiple occassions for tax offenses) and then simply form a schism and continue as an independent church. Registration is required in each state in which marriage ceremonies will be held and the rules vary from state to state (but notice that some states have severe penalties for a minister not performing the paperwork correctly).
As a suggestion, a separate 503(c) could be formed to receive donations and this could then pay the Church a reasonable amount for services actually rendered in arms length transactions (i.e. the board of the Church and the association not for gain should be different people), where the services are provided by members as a gift to the Church. There are a number of "subtle" aspects to this (or indeed any structure involving tax systems), which is why, as I have said before, this should not be discussed in a public forum.
Hermit
*The governing documents must allow the organization to qualify as a church. The absence of any one required item in the appropriate place is sufficient grounds for the IRS to revoke a church's tax-exempt status, with potentially unpleasant consequences for donors, board and officers. The minimum requirements which have to be addressed in Iowa include:
the CoV is intended to be a church.
the CoV is set up to exclusively pursue exempt functions.
the CoV prohibits all forms of inurement and private benefit
the CoV will ensure that any lobbying (influencing legislation or other members) remains within the statutory limits
the CoV prohibits all forms of political activity.
the CoV must establish and document (in the articles or if so elected in the articles, in the bylaws) a conflict of interest and dispute management process.
in the event of the dissolution of the CoV, another tax-exempt organization must receive the assets. This organization must be nominated in the articles or bylaws.
Other requirements are prescribed by each state and often the law states whether these must be included in the articles or if they may be contained in the bylaws. The original Codex was intended to provide a basis for these documents.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
RE: virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #11 on: 2003-08-05 13:12:50 »
[Kharin] "I will increase the rating of anyone who can suggest to me a real-life (not cyberspace) task I can perform that furthers the goals of the CoV. "
[Kalkor] Excellent! I just had David give me edit access to the Wiki, so after school today I'll dive in there and make myself a page and fiddle with the tasks page. Some of those tasks suggested by Bill could go in there I think.
RE: virus: Help me Help you
« Reply #12 on: 2003-08-05 15:29:09 »
I recall seeing a program on TV about a junior school in Israel that makes a policy of including both "Palestinian" and "Israeli" children in its classrooms. The pedagogical emphasis is directed towards common ground, sameness as opposed to difference.
Possibly foreign aid benefactors of Israeli coffers could encourage such initiatives?
Here in South Africa the integration of races in the classroom seems to be having a positive effect. Many of the younger generation seem to be genuinely puzzled at the notion of racism.
One of the prime vectors of U/Tism is this thing we call "culture". (Interestingly the root of this word, and also "cult", is from the Latin "coltere"(?) which means "to worship".)
It seems to be much easier to get along with a person who looks different to you when he has a similar accent and a similar educational background.
Many have tried to cut through the Gordian knot with no success: perhaps the only way forward is to patiently unravel it in this manner?
Let me furnish you with a real-world example, so you can try out different approaches on it...
Pro-Israel people are accused by anti-Israel people of ignoring distinctions between Arabs (many Arabs are not Muslim), Muslims (most Muslims are not Arabs), and jihadist Wahhabi terrorists (who espouse a violent and vurulent minority mutational subset of Islam, and are predominately, but not entirely, Arab), and of covertly attacking Islam and Arabs when they critique the Wahhabist fantasy ideology. Anti-Israel people are accused by Pro-Israel people of ignoring distinctions between Jews, Israelis (not all of whom are Jews), Semites (which include Jews and Palestinians - they are both susceptible to the genetically based malady of Tay-Sach's disease) and Zionists (many Jews, both inside and outside of Israel, are not Zionists), and of covertly attacking Jews when they critizice Zionist ideology or the actions of the state of Israel. Each side, in other words, accuses the other of racism under the cover of religious and/or ideological critique. Each side also accuses the other side of pointing out nonexistent sawdust motes in the eyes of the opposing members whilst ignoring the ship's masts obstructing their own vision. Both sides are right and both are wrong to some degree, but to what degree? Is a truly objective and independent evaluation of their competing claims possible, and if so, can such an evalustion help to resolve or at least ameliorate differences, or are all 'true believer' extremists, regardless of the content of the memeset to which they are in thrall, immune to such evaluations, and pre-programmed to memebotically filter them out? To solve this dilemma could help us VALIDLY and SOUNDLY criticize other perspectives in a convincing manner and possibly win us adherents, and also help us avoid similar pitfalls whilst engineering our own phaith.
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