Re: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #2 on: 2003-08-12 06:40:45 »
At 08:42 PM 11/08/03 -0700, you wrote: >A successful meme in a pool for the wealthy. > >Bill Roh > >metahuman wrote: > >>Topic.
They certainly take money away from their richer members in gobs. The FBI has classed them both as a paramilitary group and as organized crime. According to Bureau of Prisons and surveys of how many there are, almost one in 250 of them are locked up, mostly for fraud.
I know way more about them than is reasonable. Much of what I know can be found if you put "sex drugs cults" (without quotes) in Google and take the first link.
Few snips from that article:
A number of people including Paulette Cooper (author of one of the first books about Scientology, and a victim of the cult's attacks for 30 years) have said that as a group former Scientologists (and I presume this would hold for other cults) were not distinguishable except for being more easily deceived or duped than average people. Scientology members have been subjected to an unusual number of scams, including a $500 million Ponzi scheme that you can read about in a number of magazine articles and at http://www.slatkinfraud.com/. A long term Toronto Scientologist in a thoughtful moment commented to me that the local Scientologists he knew had been defrauded dozens of times, much more often than any other group he could think of. As the NYT article mentioned above put it "Some people seem to be born with vulnerable dopamine systems that get hijacked by social rewards." Scientologists seem to be selected out of the population to be particularly vulnerable to attention rewards.
************
Nazism/communism caused more deaths this century than the plague did in the 14th century. We understand what caused plague, even our leaders understand. But the world's leadership has no clue as to what are the root causes of Aum Shinrikyo or Bin Laden's cult. Mind control is a label to hang on it, but without understanding why "mind control" works it may be like trying to advocate hand washing before Koch and Pasteur explained microbes as the reason behind why hand washing reduced death rates.
The upcoming trial of John Walker Lindh could be used to educate people on the subjects of memes and the evolutionary psychology bases reasons we are vulnerable to them. But more likely it will be an example of primates continuing to play social games without the least insight into what is killing them.
Models, we need models! Predictive models, evolutionary psychology based social dynamics models. And we need to do experiments on those models before we take steps that seem right but only cause more problems later.
The Scientology connection--applied memetics--how it happened
Scientology has a deep connection to this article. Back in the 1950s, pulp writer L. Ron Hubbard published the first article in Astounding Science Fiction on Dianetics, an amateur psychological practice that eventually became incorporated into the Scientology cult. Scientology is, of course, a meme of the cult class. It is distinguished by such sub-memes as "fair game," the practice of suing and otherwise abusing those to speak out against its excesses. (See http://www.lermanet.com/) Scientology allegedly spends between $20 and $30 million a year pursuing its critics through the courts. (They admitted in Federal court to spending at least $2 million suing me for exposing one of their allegedly illegal medical practices and it may be as high as $5 million if funds for all the private investigators they have used on my friends, my relatives and me are included.)
I had mentioned Scientology a time or two in my memetics articles, but had taken no serious interest in it before January 1995. At that time a lawyer for Scientology issued a command (rmgroup) to remove the Usenet news group alt.religion.scientology from the Internet, apparently thinking that this "denial of service" attack on the Internet would end critical discussion about Scientology.
This attack on free speech backfired, having somewhat the effect of a gang of thugs riding into town and burning down the newspaper. This attempted censorship drew in dozens of Internet free speech advocates, me among them. "A.r.s.," as it is known, became one of the most popular groups on the net, with a readership estimated as high as 100,000. Surveys place it in the top ten and sometimes in the top 5 news groups.
This news group is a real-life soap opera, with dramatic subplots on a regular basis. Popular topics include accounts of people exiting Scientology, and a stream of reports on the cult's abuses (up to and including the "treatment" of a woman who died of dehydration--see http://www.lisamcpherson.org/). See http://www.lisatrust.net/ media section for claims of how the government and police of Clearwater, Florida have allegedly been corrupted, or put "Scientology booger" into Google.
The a.r.s. newsgroup has survived everything done to get rid of it. After the rmgroup, it was attacked by cancelling articles. Then it was hit with a denial of service storm of over four million forged nonsense postings in 1998 and 1999. The forged postings were eventually said to have been traced to group of cult operatives led by Italian Scientologist Gavino Idda, as publicly reported by former Scientologist Tory Christman. http://www.lermanet.com/cos/toryonosa.htm - Part5 (Tory's story of leaving Scientology and being attacked is a saga in itself.) In between Scientology has had a rotating group of agents posting anti-psychiatry articles and attacking people on the group. (Identifying some of these people is a major topic. Are they really agents of Scientology? Or are they critics trying to make Scientology look bad?)
The long running battle on the net has the horrid attraction of a train wreck in slow motion. Several hundred of the spectators have stepped out of the audience and taken a place on the stage creating Web sites (http://www.xenu.net/ is a prominent site), picketing Scientology locations, and being involved in many other activities open and covert. My personal involvement reached the state where I became a political refugee in Canada. (See http://www.operatingthetan.com/ for the latest update.)
The discovery of the deep connection between drugs and cults, like many discoveries, started as a set of chance observations . . . .
********
(I was convicted for picketing scientology's desert paramilitary compound over the two women they killed there in the spring of 2000. I took warnings by local officials that my conviction was political and public threats by scientologists on the net that I would be killed in jail seriously enough to become a refugee.)
RE: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #3 on: 2003-08-12 12:41:50 »
[Keith] They certainly take money away from their richer members in gobs. The FBI has classed them both as a paramilitary group and as organized crime. According to Bureau of Prisons and surveys of how many there are, almost one in 250 of them are locked up, mostly for fraud.
I know way more about them than is reasonable. Much of what I know can be found if you put "sex drugs cults" (without quotes) in Google and take the first link.
<snip>
[Kalkor] An enjoyable read! Thank you, Keith. A couple of comments from the peanut gallery: First, I had a bit of difficulty determining where the snippets from the article ended and your personal account began. Maybe some formatting and attributing would help. After I found and read the article, it was a bit more clear. Second, any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in Scientology that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'?
RE: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #4 on: 2003-08-12 13:11:17 »
[Kalkor] "any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in Scientology that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'?"
[Michelle] I've got one - one of the most rewarding sub-memes in Scientology is the concept of accountability. It really seems to make the -ists feel superior, and I can see why. They have a concept called "hatting", where you take on a position or a role in a group or at work, and it means that you have signed off on every aspect of that, and take personal responsibility for its fulfillment. If you slack, the other -ists give you no room for wiggling, you "hatted", you knew what you were supposed to do. That concept pretty much applies across the board, to the regular -ist (I don't know about the shady higher-ups).
So, personal accountability being sadly lacking in most of society, it would be nice for Virion Virtues to include, perhaps, some variant of the old "ownership" concept (from therapy?), where you admit that you are well intelligent enough to note your own inconsistencies and failures and address them with integrity. No excuses. How to compress that into a catchy blurb?
(I have a large scientology-based business operating out of my building. They don't work for the CoS but they use their principals and are all -ists. Also my receptionist at one time was an -ist.)
RE: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #5 on: 2003-08-12 13:40:27 »
[Kalkor] "any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in Scientology that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'?"
[Michelle] I've got one - one of the most rewarding sub-memes in Scientology is the concept of accountability. It really seems to make the -ists feel superior, and I can see why. They have a concept called "hatting", where you take on a position or a role in a group or at work, and it means that you have signed off on every aspect of that, and take personal responsibility for its fulfillment. If you slack, the other -ists give you no room for wiggling, you "hatted", you knew what you were supposed to do. That concept pretty much applies across the board, to the regular -ist (I don't know about the shady higher-ups).
So, personal accountability being sadly lacking in most of society, it would be nice for Virion Virtues to include, perhaps, some variant of the old "ownership" concept (from therapy?), where you admit that you are well intelligent enough to note your own inconsistencies and failures and address them with integrity. No excuses. How to compress that into a catchy blurb?
(I have a large scientology-based business operating out of my building. They don't work for the CoS but they use their principals and are all -ists. Also my receptionist at one time was an -ist.)
[Kalkor2] So taking advantage of the AAR mechanism, achievable public goals with responsibility, the completion of which "status" is bestowed upon the tasked? I like it. I used something similar on myself due to the urgings of several CoV members, and along the lines of something from the DJB about modifying your own self-image through the achievement of goals related to a desired "future self". It broke down to identifying self-percieved "deficiencies" in personality, and setting small goals to repair or replace those deficiencies with beneficial or "consistent with desired future self" personality traits.
This seems to fit in with a stated goal of CoV: from http://virus.lucifer.com/about.html : The main advantage conferred upon adherents is Virus provides a conceptual framework for leading a truly meaningful life and attaining immortality without resorting to mystical delusions.
What does an individual consider a "truly meaningful life"? For me, I'd say it was "living each day with self-confidence -- master of my own fate" or something along those lines. So how do we set up a process, wherein new members of the church must go through a series of tasks or goals, with the result of: 1) Achieving higher attention and status in the Church 2) Learning to think rationally 3) Gaining self-confidence 4) Benefiting the CoV
Is this a desireable goal for us? Any comments, suggestions, discussion from the rest of the congregation? Good to see you again, Michelle ;-}
Isn't Scientology based on evil dogmas ? If so, I don't know how can they have any useful meme.
[]'s
Rafael
> [Keith] > They certainly take money away from their richer members in gobs. The FBI > has classed them both as a paramilitary group and as organized > crime. According to Bureau of Prisons and surveys of how many there are, > almost one in 250 of them are locked up, mostly for fraud. > > I know way more about them than is reasonable. Much of what I know can be > found if you put "sex drugs cults" (without quotes) in Google and take the > first link. > > <snip> > > [Kalkor] > An enjoyable read! Thank you, Keith. A couple of comments from the peanut > gallery: > First, I had a bit of difficulty determining where the snippets from the > article ended and your personal account began. Maybe some formatting and > attributing would help. After I found and read the article, it was a bit > more clear. > Second, any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in Scientology > that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'? > > Kalkor > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Isn't accountability just another term for honoring your comitments, contracts and debts ? If yes, then I think it's implicit in the virtue of empathy. If people have enough empathy for one another then trust will eventually emerge without the need for conscious accountability.
[]'s
Rafael
> [Kalkor] "any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in > Scientology that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'?" > > [Michelle] > I've got one - one of the most rewarding sub-memes in Scientology is the > concept of accountability. It really seems to make the -ists feel > superior, and I can see why. They have a concept called "hatting", > where you take on a position or a role in a group or at work, and it > means that you have signed off on every aspect of that, and take > personal responsibility for its fulfillment. If you slack, the other > -ists give you no room for wiggling, you "hatted", you knew what you > were supposed to do. That concept pretty much applies across the board, > to the regular -ist (I don't know about the shady higher-ups). > > So, personal accountability being sadly lacking in most of society, it > would be nice for Virion Virtues to include, perhaps, some variant of > the old "ownership" concept (from therapy?), where you admit that you > are well intelligent enough to note your own inconsistencies and > failures and address them with integrity. No excuses. How to compress > that into a catchy blurb? > > (I have a large scientology-based business operating out of my building. > They don't work for the CoS but they use their principals and are all > -ists. Also my receptionist at one time was an -ist.) > > [Kalkor2] > So taking advantage of the AAR mechanism, achievable public goals with > responsibility, the completion of which "status" is bestowed upon the > tasked? I like it. I used something similar on myself due to the urgings of > several CoV members, and along the lines of something from the DJB about > modifying your own self-image through the achievement of goals related to a > desired "future self". It broke down to identifying self-percieved > "deficiencies" in personality, and setting small goals to repair or replace > those deficiencies with beneficial or "consistent with desired future self" > personality traits. > > This seems to fit in with a stated goal of CoV: from > http://virus.lucifer.com/about.html : > The main advantage conferred upon adherents is Virus provides a conceptual > framework for leading a truly meaningful life and attaining immortality > without resorting to mystical delusions. > > What does an individual consider a "truly meaningful life"? For me, I'd say > it was "living each day with self-confidence -- master of my own fate" or > something along those lines. So how do we set up a process, wherein new > members of the church must go through a series of tasks or goals, with the > result of: > 1) Achieving higher attention and status in the Church > 2) Learning to think rationally > 3) Gaining self-confidence > 4) Benefiting the CoV > > Is this a desireable goal for us? Any comments, suggestions, discussion from > the rest of the congregation? > Good to see you again, Michelle ;-} > > Kalkor > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
In my opinion, compared to the governmentologosists, the scientologists are angels!
Frederick Mann
--On Tuesday, August 12, 2003 03:04:40 PM -0700 Rafael Anschau <anschau.ez@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Isn't Scientology based on evil dogmas ? If so, I don't know how can > they have any useful meme. > > Rafael > --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Frederick Mann, from Buildfreedom.com Hi again. IT's been SOO long since we met last time. I used to be a freedom memoid, now freedom is just one more meme in my head. By the way, how did you like P MCcrtney's freedom song ?
[]'s
Rafael
> There's good and bad in Scn -- see > #TL15A: The Good and the Bad > http://buildfreedom.com/tl/tl15a.html > > In my opinion, compared to the governmentologosists, > the scientologists are angels! > > Frederick Mann > > --On Tuesday, August 12, 2003 03:04:40 PM -0700 Rafael Anschau <anschau.ez@terra.com.br> wrote: > > > Isn't Scientology based on evil dogmas ? If so, I don't know how can > > they have any useful meme. > > > > Rafael > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Well, governmentologists(as you call non-anarquists) believe in political science and economics which is based on reason not dogmas. Anarchic societies are utopic. Some sort of government is necessary to enforce justice and protect the weaker from the stronger. So far, open societies based on democracy, free trade, freedom and justice seem like the way to go.
[]'s
Rafael
> There's good and bad in Scn -- see > #TL15A: The Good and the Bad > http://buildfreedom.com/tl/tl15a.html > > In my opinion, compared to the governmentologosists, > the scientologists are angels! > > Frederick Mann > > --On Tuesday, August 12, 2003 03:04:40 PM -0700 Rafael Anschau <anschau.ez@terra.com.br> wrote: > > > Isn't Scientology based on evil dogmas ? If so, I don't know how can > > they have any useful meme. > > > > Rafael > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
RE: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #11 on: 2003-08-12 22:13:00 »
At 09:41 AM 12/08/03 -0700, you wrote:
snip
[Kalkor] >An enjoyable read! Thank you, Keith. A couple of comments from the peanut >gallery: >First, I had a bit of difficulty determining where the snippets from the >article ended and your personal account began. Maybe some formatting and >attributing would help. After I found and read the article, it was a bit >more clear.
The article was set off by ******** but point taken.
>Second, any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in Scientology >that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'?
I don't think there is a meme in scientology you would want to consider using. Look up xenu, body thetans and clusters, history of man. Nuts every bit of it.
On the other hand, the basic mechanism of rewarding people with attention is what every successful cult and for that matter every other kind of organization does. Some degree of social reward makes people wiggle like puppies being petted and makes them feel good from the dopamine and endorphins. The problem is to keep it related to the real world and not empty like the status you get in scientology.
RE: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #12 on: 2003-08-12 23:26:52 »
At 10:11 AM 12/08/03 -0700, you wrote: >[Kalkor] "any ideas on some of the more successful submemes in >Scientology that we could use to our advantage, without being 'evil'?" > >[Michelle] >I've got one - one of the most rewarding sub-memes in Scientology is the >concept of accountability. It really seems to make the -ists feel >superior, and I can see why.
It's certainly true that they act superior to everyone else. Generally though they seriously lack competence.
>They have a concept called "hatting", >where you take on a position or a role in a group or at work, and it >means that you have signed off on every aspect of that, and take >personal responsibility for its fulfillment. If you slack, the other >-ists give you no room for wiggling, you "hatted", you knew what you >were supposed to do. That concept pretty much applies across the board, >to the regular -ist (I don't know about the shady higher-ups).
Unfortunately there are "hats" for a very long list of jobs in scientology that range from bureaucratic nonsense to the outright criminal (OSA, Office of Special Affairs, scientology's dirty tricks department, "hats). Check out www.lermanet.com, or www.xenu.net. www.lisamcpherson.com is about scientology killing a woman by medical malpractice. People with "hats" were absolutely certain that they were doing things according to L. Ron Hubbard's ideas of how to treat people having a psychotic break. (Introspection rundown.)
>So, personal accountability being sadly lacking in most of society, it >would be nice for Virion Virtues to include, perhaps, some variant of >the old "ownership" concept (from therapy?), where you admit that you >are well intelligent enough to note your own inconsistencies and >failures and address them with integrity. No excuses. How to compress >that into a catchy blurb?
I would not try. There are several cults splintered off of scientology. Every one of them damaging and nasty.
>(I have a large scientology-based business operating out of my building. >They don't work for the CoS but they use their principals and are all >-ists. Also my receptionist at one time was an -ist.)
But no longer? Ask her about being regged. If she got that far (OT3 and up) see if she is willing to talk about "body thetans" or space cooties.
Re: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #13 on: 2003-08-12 23:33:46 »
At 03:04 PM 12/08/03 -0700, you wrote: >Isn't Scientology based on evil dogmas ? If so, I don't know how can >they have any useful meme.
There are certainly a number of perverted aspects to scientology. Like "never fear to hurt another in a good cause" (where good cause is anything that helps scientology or hurts its "enemies."
And for fun look up the "fair game" policy, which is what you do to "suppressive persons."
"[The court record is] replete with evidence [that Scientology] is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard."
Re: virus: Scientology: What is it? What are your opinions?
« Reply #14 on: 2003-08-12 23:48:10 »
At 12:09 PM 12/08/03 -0700, Frederick Mann wrote: >There's good and bad in Scn -- see >#TL15A: The Good and the Bad >http://buildfreedom.com/tl/tl15a.html > >In my opinion, compared to the governmentologosists, >the scientologists are angels!
That is a most interesting web site you have there.
You certainly should have the background to appreciate the life destroying aspects of scientology. May I ask your "case level"? Clear? OT?
I am reminded by your comments of the woman I mention in the article as the source of the inspiration which connected drugs and cults. By the time I met her she was long out of scientology and called it BS, but that the peak experience of her life had been in the cult--and she said so in the same awed tone of voice and body language a junky I knew used to describe one of her "peak experiences" with heroin and speed.
But if you want a really ugly experience, try the courts and law enforcement doing the bidding of a highly hostile cult.
Imagine what Japan would be like if Aum had taken it over.
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