[rhinoceros] I am a bit sceptical, and not sure at all whether I would chose the "before" or the "after" (if I had to).
<quote> When Ohio native Cindy Jackson decided to transform her face, she followed what she calls 'some basic anthropological laws of human attraction.' None of this surprises researchers studying physical attraction…Perceptions of beauty are universal and automatic, they say, in direct response to specific facial characteristics. Lynn Smith, The Los Angeles Times <end quote>
[rhinoceros] Is it so? I have seen those facial measurements etc published all around, and I can instantly and automatically recognize Barbie and what she represents, but I doubt I would be inclined to hit on her.
And I don't believe I am a statistical anomaly. What I think is that this "recognition of beauty" is just a cultural and intercultural conformity. After all, the magazines on the newsstands are more or less global these days.
<quote> With laser-beam precision, she has repositioned tissue, cartilage and bone to transform herself into one of the most desirable women of the late 20th century. Corinna Honan, The Daily Telegraph <end quote>
[rhinoceros] Putting aside this small exaggeration, I think desirability has many different facets. If you walk on the streets and listen to that verbal fraction of our fellow-citizens, you will hear different kinds of compliments for different types of women, with or without "love-handles" and "saddlebags".
I suspect that when a boy looks at a magazine cover and sees the woman of his dreams he actually sees more than "universal beauty". At the least, he sees someone who will be readily recognized as beautiful by his peers. At most, he sees glitter and a "different kind of life".
...it's easy for men to seem profound and say things like, "oh, that's disgusting..." or "she was better looking before she started!"...or "i would never go on a date with chick that looked like that". but we are trained to know that statements like that will win us points in the minds of others. the fact is that she does look considerably better now than she did before. what is fairly unattractive is her obsession and what i imagine to be a pathological personality. but even that statement is unfair for me to say...some people are born with good looks, and those that arent can pretend it doesnt matter all they want, but the fact is it does. we are genetically wired this way...we WANT to be found 'attractive' or 'alluring' by our peers. we want to have people think, "oooh, what a sexpot that is!" and when we dont? we learn to deal with it and find the best possible alternative.
...so; is this chick more attractive now? yes. but in lieu of her obsession, i imagine she comes with lots of seriously annoying psychological accompanyments. so i believe i could find a much better all around package elsewhere. who knows, i could be wrong...maybe because of her new self-confidence-inducing appearance, she's lost her psycho aspects. but conventional wisdom tells me as a male that if i were to encounter her at a cocktail party and she was looking her best, i might be up for quickly bending her over a sofa, lifting the dress up and having a quick go at her.
[rhinoceros] I am a bit sceptical, and not sure at all whether I would chose the "before" or the "after" (if I had to).
<quote> When Ohio native Cindy Jackson decided to transform her face, she followed what she calls 'some basic anthropological laws of human attraction.' None of this surprises researchers studying physical attraction…Perceptions of beauty are universal and automatic, they say, in direct response to specific facial characteristics. Lynn Smith, The Los Angeles Times <end quote>
[rhinoceros] Is it so? I have seen those facial measurements etc published all around, and I can instantly and automatically recognize Barbie and what she represents, but I doubt I would be inclined to hit on her.
And I don't believe I am a statistical anomaly. What I think is that this "recognition of beauty" is just a cultural and intercultural conformity. After all, the magazines on the newsstands are more or less global these days.
<quote> With laser-beam precision, she has repositioned tissue, cartilage and bone to transform herself into one of the most desirable women of the late 20th century. Corinna Honan, The Daily Telegraph <end quote>
[rhinoceros] Putting aside this small exaggeration, I think desirability has many different facets. If you walk on the streets and listen to that verbal fraction of our fellow-citizens, you will hear different kinds of compliments for different types of women, with or without "love-handles" and "saddlebags".
I suspect that when a boy looks at a magazine cover and sees the woman of his dreams he actually sees more than "universal beauty". At the least, he sees someone who will be readily recognized as beautiful by his peers. At most, he sees glitter and a "different kind of life".
Well, if you go for that heavily made up look... Who knows what lurks underneath the makeup. Notice we don't get to see an unmade up before and after pic. I don't think she is attractive in either one. She is just polished. there is a difference. But, a facade can be quite effective if you are only going after a one night stand or men who aren't attractive either. They do say that we tend to be attracted to those of our own level ( on a real basis, not an oh she/he is hot basis)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr Sebby" <drsebby@hotmail.com> To: <virus@lucifer.com> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 1:08 PM Subject: Re:virus: Transhuman (Body work)
> ...it's easy for men to seem profound and say things like, "oh, that's > disgusting..." or "she was better looking before she started!"...or "i would > never go on a date with chick that looked like that". but we are trained to > know that statements like that will win us points in the minds of others. > the fact is that she does look considerably better now than she did before. > what is fairly unattractive is her obsession and what i imagine to be a > pathological personality. but even that statement is unfair for me to > say...some people are born with good looks, and those that arent can pretend > it doesnt matter all they want, but the fact is it does. we are genetically > wired this way...we WANT to be found 'attractive' or 'alluring' by our > peers. we want to have people think, "oooh, what a sexpot that is!" and > when we dont? we learn to deal with it and find the best possible > alternative. > > ...so; is this chick more attractive now? yes. but in lieu of her > obsession, i imagine she comes with lots of seriously annoying psychological > accompanyments. so i believe i could find a much better all around package > elsewhere. who knows, i could be wrong...maybe because of her new > self-confidence-inducing appearance, she's lost her psycho aspects. but > conventional wisdom tells me as a male that if i were to encounter her at a > cocktail party and she was looking her best, i might be up for quickly > bending her over a sofa, lifting the dress up and having a quick go at her. > > > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards". > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "rhinoceros" <rhinoceros@freemail.gr> > Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: Re:virus: Transhuman (Body work) > Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:25:03 -0600 > > [hkhenson] > http://www.cindyjackson.com/my_surgery.php > > > [rhinoceros] > I am a bit sceptical, and not sure at all whether I would chose the "before" > or the "after" (if I had to). > > <quote> > When Ohio native Cindy Jackson decided to transform her face, she followed > what she calls 'some basic anthropological laws of human attraction.' None > of this surprises researchers studying physical attraction.Perceptions of > beauty are universal and automatic, they say, in direct response to specific > facial characteristics. > Lynn Smith, The Los Angeles Times > <end quote> > > [rhinoceros] > Is it so? I have seen those facial measurements etc published all around, > and I can instantly and automatically recognize Barbie and what she > represents, but I doubt I would be inclined to hit on her. > > And I don't believe I am a statistical anomaly. What I think is that this > "recognition of beauty" is just a cultural and intercultural conformity. > After all, the magazines on the newsstands are more or less global these > days. > > > <quote> > With laser-beam precision, she has repositioned tissue, cartilage and bone > to transform herself into one of the most desirable women of the late 20th > century. > Corinna Honan, The Daily Telegraph > <end quote> > > [rhinoceros] > Putting aside this small exaggeration, I think desirability has many > different facets. If you walk on the streets and listen to that verbal > fraction of our fellow-citizens, you will hear different kinds of > compliments for different types of women, with or without "love-handles" and > "saddlebags". > > I suspect that when a boy looks at a magazine cover and sees the woman of > his dreams he actually sees more than "universal beauty". At the least, he > sees someone who will be readily recognized as beautiful by his peers. At > most, he sees glitter and a "different kind of life". > > > <quote> > Farm-girl turned cover-girl. > Wendy Leigh, The Sunday Mirror > <end quote> > > [rhinoceros] > A legit goal, but it shouldn't be taken as something else. > > > > ---- > This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2004 board on Church of > Virus BBS. > <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=302 76> > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Whilst I agree with you on most points Sebby , I have to agree somewhat with Rhino on the matter of is she more attractive now.
Whilst she looks better in a certain sense now, her original looks were not that bad and her face had more character, something I like in female faces.
Perhaps it is just me, but I prefer natural, even worn faces to these botox stiffened but more symmetrical artificial faces. She had an interesting Swedish looking face with soft eyes, now she looks - despite stating her intention to not look like this - "done".
...it's easy for men to seem profound and say things like, "oh, that's disgusting..." or "she was better looking before she started!"...or "i would never go on a date with chick that looked like that". but we are trained to know that statements like that will win us points in the minds of others. m/cgi-bin/virus-l>
The nose looks a little better from the side, but most of the "improvement" in looks is achieved by the addition of porn star make-up, and way better lighting for the "now" photos. Plus she apparently quit going to supper cuts for hair repair.
I like people to look their best, but to much cutting is usually a sign of other problems.
If any of you decide to go that rout though, I suggest a trip to Bangkok, where surgery is just as good if not better than in the west, but a lot more affordable. Like one fifth the price. Nicer hospitals and people, for the most part, not to mention the food. Way better than here. Can't sue anybody though. That fact leaves most Americans out of the deal.
Just my 2 cents.
Bill MacKinnon
Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. - F. Zappa
On May 9, 2004, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Davis wrote:
> Whilst I agree with you on most points Sebby , I have to agree > somewhat with > Rhino on the matter of is she more attractive now. > > Whilst she looks better in a certain sense now, her original looks > were not > that bad and her face had more character, something I like in female > faces. > > Perhaps it is just me, but I prefer natural, even worn faces to these > botox > stiffened but more symmetrical artificial faces. She had an interesting > Swedish looking face with soft eyes, now she looks - despite stating > her > intention to not look like this - "done". > > Regards > > Limbic > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On > Behalf Of > Dr Sebby > Sent: 09 May 2004 21:09 > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: Re:virus: Transhuman (Body work) > > ...it's easy for men to seem profound and say things like, "oh, that's > disgusting..." or "she was better looking before she started!"...or "i > would > never go on a date with chick that looked like that". but we are > trained to > know that statements like that will win us points in the minds of > others. > m/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> >
[Blunderov] I suppose she is beautiful. She has gone to a lot of trouble to simulate as many of the cultural characteristics of beauty as she can.
I once read of some research that was done into male perceptions of beauty. They came up with a new word to describe their findings - neotonic. The word means roughly 'like a baby'. It was their finding that woman with faces that were devoid of definitely formed characteristics (hence 'like a baby') were likely to be perceived more beautiful than those whose features were not so. (I don't know if they extended the scope of their enquiries below the face and it seems that they may have missed a trick here.)
I wonder whether beauty doesn't respond quite strongly to natural selection and whether it doesn't account for some of the variations in physiognomy that are seen around the planet. (I suppose I should be wary of the assumption that those who are more attractive have a better chance of breeding until I have some actual data though - one local locker room witticism holds that all cats are black in the dark.)
Perceptions of beauty have certainly varied widely down the ages. The ample figures of Neolithic fertility goddess statues are thought by some to reflect the importance of fecundity in those societies. It might be worth wondering whether there is some connection here to the fact that the anorexic figure of Twiggy became popular during the height of the sexual revolution at about the time when the pill was invented. <q> Beauty is a bikini wax 'n waitin' for yer nails to dry Beauty is colored pencil, scribbled all around yer eye Beauty is a pair of shoes that makes you wanna die
Well said. Neotonic. I like that word. I live in a town here (Miami) that is full of beauties. That doesn't automatically translate to happiness often though. I think this is the prozac capital of the world. Many screwed up girls here, it seems to me. To much focus on appearance, as with anything, will mess you up. I do like looking at them though.
By the way, Blunderov, are you in S. Africa? Saw your e-mail address. I was there a couple of years ago and loved it. Game parks, Sun City, George, and Cape Town. A wonderful place. Can't wait to go back.
Bill
Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty, Beauty is not love, Love is not music and Music is THE BEST - F. Zappa
On May 9, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Blunderov wrote:
> [Blunderov] I suppose she is beautiful. She has gone to a lot of > trouble to > simulate as many of the cultural characteristics of beauty as she can. > > I once read of some research that was done into male perceptions of > beauty. > They came up with a new word to describe their findings - neotonic. > The word > means roughly 'like a baby'. It was their finding that woman with > faces that > were devoid of definitely formed characteristics (hence 'like a baby') > were > likely to be perceived more beautiful than those whose features were > not so. > (I don't know if they extended the scope of their enquiries below the > face > and it seems that they may have missed a trick here.) > > I wonder whether beauty doesn't respond quite strongly to natural > selection > and whether it doesn't account for some of the variations in > physiognomy > that are seen around the planet. (I suppose I should be wary of the > assumption that those who are more attractive have a better chance of > breeding until I have some actual data though - one local locker room > witticism holds that all cats are black in the dark.) > > Perceptions of beauty have certainly varied widely down the ages. The > ample > figures of Neolithic fertility goddess statues are thought by some to > reflect the importance of fecundity in those societies. It might be > worth > wondering whether there is some connection here to the fact that the > anorexic figure of Twiggy became popular during the height of the > sexual > revolution at about the time when the pill was invented. > <q> > Beauty is a bikini wax 'n waitin' for yer nails to dry > Beauty is colored pencil, scribbled all around yer eye > Beauty is a pair of shoes that makes you wanna die > > Frank Zappa, Beauty Knows No Pain > </q> > > > > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> >
The people I've found attractive rarely fit into any pattern, let alone some universal norm.
My guess is that what researchers are studying is a large memetic attractor revolving around culturally promulgated “ideas of attraction” and not anything physiologically meaningful.
For example, TV stations and magazines indirectly poll audiences for what they find attractive. They cannot be all things to all people, so they have to hire people that are “in the middle” and appeal to the majority of viewers. This “majority imagery” then becomes some sort of standard. This standard, in turn, affects th audiences - modifying their notions of status and beauty.
We all know that throughout history, standards of beauty have changed. All evidence points to it being cultural - not physiological.
Overall this sort of pseudoscience is harmful to the consumer.
Kindof like “everyone likes sweets, so let's make our products sweeter” mentality. Good for the short-term market share, bad for the kids. Products get sweeter and sweeter, in order to compete.
But what products have very-long-term viability and vitality? Cherios, corn flakes and rice-krispies. None of them are excessively sweet.
Likewise, so-called beauty is nothing more than the “chocolate count dracula coco poofers” of the modern day. And it is equally as false, unhealthy and fleeting. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
...so; is this chick more attractive now? yes. but in lieu of her obsession, i imagine she comes with lots of seriously annoying psychological accompanyments. so i believe i could find a much better all around package elsewhere. who knows, i could be wrong...maybe because of her new self-confidence-inducing appearance, she's lost her psycho aspects. but conventional wisdom tells me as a male that if i were to encounter her at a cocktail party and she was looking her best, i might be up for quickly bending her over a sofa, lifting the dress up and having a quick go at her.
[Kalkor] Obsession? Sounds like you may be projecting. I read nothing more into this than a person who has the intelligence and surgical means to make herself look the way she wants to.
If I decide my shoulders aren't big enough for my liking, I have the option of, with discipline and hard work, to go to the gym, alter my diet and habits, and eventually end up with the result I want. The fact that she did the exact same thing, over a much longer period of time (more work, more dedication?) and with tools that have only recently become available does not necessarily make her more or less "obsessed" than you or I.
Someone does not have to be "psycho" to want to change some aspect of their appearance or behavior. I lower my voice all the time to relax people. Does this make me psycho? Essentially it's the same, as far as I can tell.
[Bill MacKinnon] <snip> I like people to look their best, but to much cutting is usually a sign of other problems. <snip>
[Kalkor] Can you support this statement?
Maybe from another perspective, it's more "brave".
When I hear people say "x is crazy because they want to change themselves to look better" regardless of the tools used, I have an overwhelming urge to assume that it's really just a case of the pot calling the kettle jealous.
....with regards to the baby similarity; "feminine" features go in that direction anyways...softer chin, softer nose, largish eyes....even guys labelled as "cute" by women share some of those characteristics. i've heard that symetry (spelling?) is a factor, but that the only universal 'beauty factor' shared by all cultures is that of cleanliness.
....doesnt youth or youthful look seem attractive for breeding purposes and health?
[Blunderov] I suppose she is beautiful. She has gone to a lot of trouble to simulate as many of the cultural characteristics of beauty as she can.
I once read of some research that was done into male perceptions of beauty. They came up with a new word to describe their findings - neotonic. The word means roughly 'like a baby'. It was their finding that woman with faces that were devoid of definitely formed characteristics (hence 'like a baby') were likely to be perceived more beautiful than those whose features were not so. (I don't know if they extended the scope of their enquiries below the face and it seems that they may have missed a trick here.)
I wonder whether beauty doesn't respond quite strongly to natural selection and whether it doesn't account for some of the variations in physiognomy that are seen around the planet. (I suppose I should be wary of the assumption that those who are more attractive have a better chance of breeding until I have some actual data though - one local locker room witticism holds that all cats are black in the dark.)
Perceptions of beauty have certainly varied widely down the ages. The ample figures of Neolithic fertility goddess statues are thought by some to reflect the importance of fecundity in those societies. It might be worth wondering whether there is some connection here to the fact that the anorexic figure of Twiggy became popular during the height of the sexual revolution at about the time when the pill was invented. <q> Beauty is a bikini wax 'n waitin' for yer nails to dry Beauty is colored pencil, scribbled all around yer eye Beauty is a pair of shoes that makes you wanna die
....i suppose you are correct. i was likely operating under one of the conditions i had stated when writing that bit; people are often too wary of what others will think when commenting on such things - i suppose i too fell into that crack. although seeing as how she now has a significantly reduced time to be 'beautiful' compared to a natural born beauty, i wouldnt be surprised if she went about 'gettin' what's hers' like a tigress. so i would still stay away from her.
...so; is this chick more attractive now? yes. but in lieu of her obsession, i imagine she comes with lots of seriously annoying psychological accompanyments. so i believe i could find a much better all around package elsewhere. who knows, i could be wrong...maybe because of her new self-confidence-inducing appearance, she's lost her psycho aspects. but conventional wisdom tells me as a male that if i were to encounter her at a cocktail party and she was looking her best, i might be up for quickly bending her over a sofa, lifting the dress up and having a quick go at her.
[Kalkor] Obsession? Sounds like you may be projecting. I read nothing more into this than a person who has the intelligence and surgical means to make herself look the way she wants to.
If I decide my shoulders aren't big enough for my liking, I have the option of, with discipline and hard work, to go to the gym, alter my diet and habits, and eventually end up with the result I want. The fact that she did the exact same thing, over a much longer period of time (more work, more dedication?) and with tools that have only recently become available does not necessarily make her more or less "obsessed" than you or I.
Someone does not have to be "psycho" to want to change some aspect of their appearance or behavior. I lower my voice all the time to relax people. Does this make me psycho? Essentially it's the same, as far as I can tell.
Bill MacKinnon Sent: 10 May 2004 12:31 AM =20 By the way, Blunderov, are you in S. Africa? Saw your e-mail address. I = was there a couple of years ago and loved it. Game parks, Sun City, George, and Cape Town. A wonderful place. Can't = wait to go back.
[Blunderov] Hello Bill. Yes I am from SA. If you ever do fetch up in = Jo'burg (all Virians please take note) you are welcome to stay with us. We = belong to a peace organization called Servas which facilitates travel and contact between cultures and we are quite used to putting folks up for a while.
(The politburo has approved a four year plan to move to Cape Town, so = the venue will eventually change but not the offer.)
A frank Zappa fan! You don't happen to play chess do you?
Best Regards
Heavenly Bank Account (Frank Zappa)
And if these words you do not heed Your pocketbook just kinda might recede When some man comes along and claims a godly need He'll clean you out right through your tweed=20
That's right, remember there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over...=20
He's got twenty million dollars In his Heavenly Bank Account... All from those chumps who was Born Again Oh yeah, oh yeah=20
He's got seven limousines And a private plane... All for the use of his Special Friends Oh yeah, oh yeah He's got thousand-dollar suits And a Wembley Tie... Girls love to stroke it While he's on the phone Oh yeah, oh yeah=20
At the House of Representatives He's a groovy guy... When he Gives Thanks He is not alone...=20
He is dealin' He is really dealin' IRS can't determine Where The Hook is=20
It is easy with the Bible To pretend that You're in Show Biz=20
And a one, and a two, and a...=20
They won't get him They will never get him For the naughty stuff That he did=20
It is best in cases like this To pretend that You are stupid=20
He's got Presidential Help All along the way He says the grace While the lawyers chew Oh yeah They sure do=20
And the Governors agree to say: "He's a lovely man!" He makes it easier for Them to screw All of you... Yes, that's true!=20
'Cause he helps put The Fear of God In the Common Man Snatchin' up money Everywhere he can Oh yeah Oh yeah=20
He's got twenty million dollars In his Heavenly Bank Account You ain't got nothin', people TAX THE CHURCHES! You ain't got nothin', people TAX THE BUSINESSES OWNED BY THE CHURCHES! You ain't got nothin', people Thank the man...oh yeah (That's right! You ain't got nothing an' they got it all And your miserable ass is up against the wall The only thing you have not tried Is the sport of chumps An' that's: suicide...)=20
[Blunderov] Apologies. I must correct what I posted earlier about 'neotonic' being a new word. I now discover that it is a well known biological term and means 'remaining in the larval stage'. (Apparently salamanders that remain in the water instead of becoming truly amphibious are referred to as being neotonic, for instance.)
Whilst I haven't had time to do more than skim the following link, it does look interesting. http://www.neoteny.org/a/sexualselection.html <q> "Christopher Badcock, a sociologist at the London School of Economics who unusually combines an interest in evolution and an interest in Freud, has proposed a similar idea. He suggested that neotonic (or, as he calls it, "paedomorphic") traits were favored by female choice rather than male choice. Younger males, he suggests, made more cooperative hunters, and therefore females who wanted meat picked younger-looking men. The principle is the same: Neotenic development is a consequence of a preference for it in one sex." (Ridley 1993: 343, The Red Queen) </q> Best Regards
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