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Joe Dees
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Clarke claims responsibility
« on: 2004-05-26 17:34:43 »
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Clarke claims responsibility
« Reply #1 on: 2004-05-27 00:45:40 »
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Joe Dees
Sent: 26 May 2004 11:35 PM
(Joe) So dies another Bush-Bin Ladin conspiracy theory.
Blunderov]
Maybe it's not that clear cut?

<snippets>
Roemer (D-Ind.), one of the 10 members of the bipartisan Sept. 11
commission, said in an interview Monday: "In my mind, this isn't resolved
right now. We need more clarity and information from the relevant political
sources and FBI sources."

(Hamilton)cautioned that this is "a story that could shift, and we still
have this under review."

This new account of the events seemed to contradict Clarke's sworn testimony
before the Sept. 11 commission at the end of March about who approved the
flights.

"The request came to me, and I refused to approve it," Clarke testified. "I
suggested that it be routed to the FBI and that the FBI look at the names of
the individuals who were going to be on the passenger manifest and that they
approve it or not. I spoke with the - at the time - No. 2 person in the FBI,
Dale Watson, and asked him to deal with this issue. The FBI then
approved...the flight."

"That's a little different than saying, 'I claim sole responsibility for it
now,'" Roemer said yesterday.

However, the FBI has denied approving the flight.

FBI spokeswoman Donna Spiser said, "We haven't had anything to do with
arranging and clearing the flights."

Instead of putting the issue to rest, Clarke's testimony fueled speculation
among Democrats that someone higher up in the administration, perhaps White
House Chief of Staff Andy Card, approved the flights.

"It couldn't have come from Clarke. It should have come from someone further
up the chain," said a Democratic Senate aide who watched Clarke's testimony.


Clarke's testimony did not settle the issue for Roemer, either.

"It doesn't seem that Richard Clarke had enough information to clear it,"
Roemer said Monday.

"I just don't think that the questions are resolved, and we need to dig
deeper," Roemer added. "Clarke sure didn't seem to say that he was the final
decisionmaker. I believe we need to continue to look for some more answers."
</snippets>
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Joe Dees
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Re:Clarke claims responsibility
« Reply #2 on: 2004-05-27 02:34:30 »
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Re:Clarke claims responsibility
« Reply #3 on: 2004-05-27 05:21:39 »
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Joe Dees
Sent: 27 May 2004 08:35 AM


That's what you would EXPECT from a loyal Democrat in an election year.  He
has no trouble believing that any controverial and sensationalistic negative
contentions from people with fat book deals coming down the pike (like
Ritter or Clarke or Zinni) which are leveled against the Bush administration
are true, but a helluva lot of trouble believing the same people he believed
without question before, when, by means of their own subsequent statements,
negative contentions that had previously been leveled about the Bush
administration are admitted or proven not to be the case.

Kinda like on this board...

----
[Blunderov] It seems to me that you set too much store on the credibility of
sources. The real Ariadne's thread is to concentrate on the merits, or
otherwise, of a statement or argument. Are the facts true? Are the arguments
cogent? Are the examples relevant? Are the conclusions justified?

I know that memebots, as you call them, are immensely frustrating to attempt
to reason with. All of us who have tried to convince religious people to
reconsider their positions will know this. But to set out with the
assumption that everyone who has a contrary position to one's own is very
likely a memebot, is well, rather memebotic in it's own right.

Best Regards




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Joe Dees
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Re:Clarke claims responsibility
« Reply #4 on: 2004-05-27 14:44:05 »
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Re:Clarke claims responsibility
« Reply #5 on: 2004-05-27 15:40:18 »
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Joe Dees
Sent: 27 May 2004 08:44 PM



Rather than taking Roemer's partisan commentary upon Clarke at face value,
I'm accepting Clarke's own self-admission as true.  I am accepting the fact
rather than falling for the politically motivated interpretation.  What's
memeboltic about that?

----
[Blunderov] But you're doing it again. You reject Roemer on the grounds that
he is partisan. You have simply bypassed his arguments which are:

#1
"The request came to me, and I refused to approve it," Clarke testified. "I
suggested that it be routed to the FBI and that the FBI look at the names of
the individuals who were going to be on the passenger manifest and that they
approve it or not. I spoke with the - at the time - No. 2 person in the FBI,
Dale Watson, and asked him to deal with this issue. The FBI then
approved...the flight."

"That's a little different than saying, 'I claim sole responsibility for it
now,'" Roemer said yesterday.

[Blunderov] Apparently there is a contradiction. Whether this is true or not
need not concern us here; the point is you have not addressed this assertion
at all.
#2
"It doesn't seem that Richard Clarke had enough information to clear it,"
Roemer said Monday.

"I just don't think that the questions are resolved, and we need to dig
deeper," Roemer added. "Clarke sure didn't seem to say that he was the final
decisionmaker. I believe we need to continue to look for some more answers."

[Blunderov] Roemer contends that Clarke's statement is inconsistent. Again
it need not concern us here whether or not this is correct; the point is
that you have not addressed this assertion at all.

You have simply rejected Roemer on the grounds that he is partisan. Is it
possible that Clarke himself might be partisan?

What was it that prevented you from entertaining this possibility?

Best Regards




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Joe Dees
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Re:Clarke claims responsibility
« Reply #6 on: 2004-05-27 16:19:25 »
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