From: Joe Dees (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Fri May 07 2004 - 12:16:06 MDT
On Thu, 6 May 2004, Joe Dees wrote:
> On Thu, 6 May 2004, Joe Dees wrote:
> > There have been many bad actions and decisions in US history (the big
> > one being Vietnam, which we never should've taken over from the French),
> > but the Afghan and Iraqi campaigns are not, in my opinion, two of them.
> > I have also already stated that I approved neither of Bush's reactionary
> > domestic social policies nor his fiscal irresponsibility; this disproves
> > and refutes your claim that I cannot conceive of anything bad about the
> > US (by provision of counterfactual evidence). You, however, have never
> > had anything whatsoever good to say about either the US or any of its
>
> (Joe) You neglected to mention a few things: The saving of Europe
> thrice (WWI, WWII, Serbia) and soon to be again with Islamofascism The
> saving of South Korea The collapse of the Soviet Union
Maybe I think we would be better off if America hadn't bombed the shit
out of Germany and Europe? Certainly the economy would have been doing
much better, now that I think about it. Millions of people would still
be alive and we wouldn't have had to pay for all the shit Russians wanted.
Yeah, WWII was most likely a disfavor that America did to Europe, from my
personal economical point of view.
(Joe) Millions more, including many more Jews, Germans, Russians, Britons and Eastern Europeans, would be dead. In the absence of US support, Nazi Germany could have taken Britain or fortressed the French coast and then concentrated its war machine on the Eastern Front with Stalinist Russia, all the time continuing to implement its Final Solution to the Jewish Problem. A more favorable alternative, in your view?
Does listing all these "good things we did to you" make you feel better?
Did I hurt your feelings of America by trying to show you the butt-ugly
truth? How about you in turn amuse me and list all the good things that
my country has done? Shall we then compete on whose dick is bigger, ha?
(Joe) We did them FOR you, at Europe's pleading, begging request, but of course there are bound to be ingrates.
Seriously, you have some kind of Jesus-fixation on your country that
is keeping you away from viewing and looking at the truth objectively.
You don't want to break that image of America the Beautiful, so you
indulge yourself and live in a fantasy world like most Americans. I expect
virians to do better than that. I used to think like you did, a long
time ago when I was 15.
(Joe) It seems that you have an "America the Ugly" fixation. But the history of every nation is a mixed bag.
> I'm sure Arnold the Terminator will make a nice president for you some
> day. He can't be any worse.. And he's originally Austrian, so that makes
> him practically a European.
>
> (Joe) He cannot be a US president because he was born in Austria. Only
> native-born US citizens can become US presidents - it's in our
> constitution.
Bet you anything they'll change it just in time.
(Joe) Naaah!
> > leaders (at least that I've seen onlist), thus I countercharge you with
> > being constitutionally unable to believe, accept or conceive of anything
> > GOOD about America, and unable to accept the dead-body evidence of
> > Syrian and Iranian infiltration and Baathist dead-enders.
>
> There's probably agents of every government on earth there. And
> I wouldn't be surprised if you found a few martians as well. I
> hear they're worried the rover will discover their oil next.
>
> (Joe) The US was getting that oil anyway, by buying it on the open
> market. It ain't any cheaper now; it's just that the Iraqi people get
> the money for it, instead of the Saddamite dictatorship and corrupt UN,
> French and German officials. It was they who were willing to sacrifice
You sure know things. It was thanks to Iraq insisting US stay out of
the Oil for Food programs, that the Americans didn't get a stake in
cashing in on it. As for the corruption, it seems to have benefitted
US at the time to let them take the dough. Now it's a handy PR-weapon
to batter the UN. None the less, despicable, all the same.
(Joe) I do my research. The UN officials and the bought-by-Iraq countries were corrupt and venal, and eschewed the greater global good for the sake of narrow and self-serving economic interests. There is no anti-US spin that can be placed on this ethical and moral failure.
> the blood of murdered Iraqis for the sake of oil. (Joe) It's what
> Syria's Assad and the Iranian mullahs are doing, all right; they fear
> the model of a successful Iraqi democracy next door would inspire
> further insurrection in their restless peoples, who are already holding
> periodical por-democracy protests and riots. The ruling despots would
> much rather that totalitarianism continue to dominate in Iraq rather
> than have a democracy take hold there and spread seeds of hope
> throughout the region.
Sponsoring "democracy" groups and whatnot opposition is usual US practice
when they want legitimacy to criticize governments, but did it save the
Democracy in Iran? No, what they got was the government US installed,
which, again, they now want to overthrow, so they now sponsor the
democracy groups in Iran. Osama Bin Laden and Taleban were trained to
be terrorists by CIA, during the days of Soviet occupation. Even
Saddam was America's man they *wanted* in power.
The lesson:
a) Americans are always doing what's good for other countries and their
people because they know better than them what they want and need.
or
b) Americans are always doing what's best for themselves and their
economy.
Which is right? Which is more likely? What motivates Americans?
What motivated them to go to America in the first place? Greed!
A hard lesson taught to Haitis just this year when the US Marines
came to fix their error in choosing the wrong government. Well,
the French went in there to help them, so it's a tad more fashionable
than the other cases.
(Joe) The US was, out of strategic necessity, involved in the same perfidies (supporting corrupt dictators, subverting popular governments) that the USSR was involved in during the Cold War. With the demise of the Soviet Union (after they experienced their own Vietnam in Afghanistan) and the democratization of Russia and Eastern Europe, such perfidies became unnecessary. The US has largly invilved itself in humanitarian and despot-toppling efforts since then.
BTW: the French didn't ask for UN permission before they imposed their own solution in the Ivory Coast, did they? Hypocrites! And Aristide, following the example set by a long line of Haitian dictators, was subverting the electoral process.
Greed and self-interest are not always the same, nor is self-interest necessarily opposed to the interests of others. It is in the US self-interest to promote democracy because democracies rarely war against each other, instead competing in the economic domain. This is also in the interest of democratized countries.
---- This message was posted by Joe Dees to the Virus 2004 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=30260> --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri May 07 2004 - 12:16:49 MDT